Christians often complain about the Law that bans any none-Muslim from the holy city of Mecca, they have a problem with the fact that only Muslims are allowed into this city, and hence they claim that this is discrimination and unfair. How about we spin that same logic back on the Christians?
Why is it that according to the Bible, only true believers shall be allowed into the Kingdom of God, while the none-believers will be cast out and thrown into hell? By the same logic that too is discriminatory! Are Muslims allowed into the Christian Kingdom of God? What about Atheists? Satanists? Gays? Or even Lesbians? None of these groups of people will be allowed into the Kingdom of God, only true Christian believers shall be allowed inside. (That is according to the Bible as well, I know some very few liberal Christians will say that yes anyone is allowed to enter the kingdom of God, this liberal view does indeed exist, but it’s a very fringe opinion and not followed by the majority of Christians.)
So here is the Q, why do Christians have a problem with none-Muslims being barred from Mecca, but have no problem with none-Christian believers being barred from the Kingdom of God? There’s something for our Christian friends to think about.
Categories: Christianity
The Muslim Debate Initiative 
The first Christians didn’t invent rules for getting into the kingdom of heaven but they believe that Jesus is: the son of David, the son of Abraham, the last King of Judah, Savior, Redeemer, and a light to all Gentiles.
This gospel of the kingdom is exclusive –
Jn 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Christians desire people from every nation, tribe, and tongue to know the love of the Father demonstrated through his one and only Son, Jesus of Nazareth, who as a child also lived for a time in Egypt.
The message Jesus declared is meant for every descendent of Adam –
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Actually, Jesus included all of humanity in his salvation through the cross-not just Christians–all of humanity–
Perhaps you don’t understand Christian theology?
I think the problem lies in that Islamic nations are not accepting of other faiths in their boundaries while Judeo-Christian (based-not theocratic) countries welcome people of all faiths and backgrounds.
Your logic is fallable in this post on several levels, but I think the premise of your blog is nice–except–you seem to let anger be the seed of your posts–rather than the ideals espoused in your about page:
I see nothing about human unity in denying access to Christians in your post–and your attack and lack of understanding of Christian salvation.
Peace be with you,
Our Aims
MDI is here to support, encourage and promote debate that contrasts Islam against other intellectual universes of discourse (e.g. atheism and its different strands, secularists and their different political models, Christians and their divergent denominations etc) for the purpose of the pursuit of truth, human unity and acceptance and the strengthening of everyone’s understanding of other worldviews.
lol you Christians are so funny, yes Jesus made his salvation for everyone, BUT WHAT IF WE REJECT IT, that was my point, yet you go on a totally different point to eavde my main point. if we reject Jesus, dont accept the supposed Christian doctrine, then we shall be in hell.
furthermore Paul gave a whole list of bad people who wont enter heaven, including gays, and lesbians, which is why i included them in the list, but obviously that point passed you.
so the point remains, only Christians who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior shall enter Heaven. you quoted a verse where Jesus says he is the way the truth and the light, well what if i reject that and say he isnt, and that satan is the correct way, what will happen to me? i will go to hell according to your Bible, so stop playing these silly games of trying to put a wool over the people’s eyes.
thank you as well, you Christians even proved my point by quoting the Bible which says:
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
BINGO, that was what i was talking about, if we reject the Christian creed we stand CONDEMNED, and will not go to the kingdom of heaven, only Christians will! I mean are you Christians so blinded that you cannot even read the very verse you quote???? something is obviously wrong when you quote a verse proving what i say, then call me ignorant, very worrying i must say.
samialathar – I did not disagree with you. Your assessment of Biblical Christianity is correct. You are not ignorant but apparently lacking in faith that Jesus is the Son of God.
Why are non-Muslims not allowed in the holy cities of Makkah and Madinah?
Answer by Dr.Zakir Naik
It is true that non-Muslims are not allowed in the holy cities of Makkah and Madinah, by law. The following points will serve to elucidate the possible reasoning behind such a restriction.
1. All citizens are not permitted in the cantonment area
I am a citizen of India. Yet, I am not permitted to enter certain restricted areas like the cantonment. In every country there are certain areas where a common citizen of that country cannot enter. Only a citizen who is enrolled in the military or those who are connected with the defence of the country are allowed in the cantonment area. Similarly Islam is a Universal Religion for the entire world and for all human beings. The cantonment areas of Islam are the two holy cites of Makkah and Madinah. Here only those who believe in Islam and are involved in the defence of Islam i.e. the Muslims are allowed.
It would be illogical for a common citizen to object against the restriction on entering a cantonment area. Similarly it is not appropriate for non-Muslims to object against the restriction on non-Muslims against entering Makkah and Madinah.
2. Visa to enter Makkah and Madinah
Whenever a person travels to a foreign country he has to first apply for a visa i.e. the permission to enter that country. Every country has its own rules, regulations and requirements for issuing a visa. Unless their critera are satisfied they will not issue a visa.
One of the countries which is very strict in issuing a visa is the United States of America, especially when issuing visas to citizens of the third world. They have several conditions and requirements to be fulfilled before they issue a visa.
When I visited Singapore, it was mentioned on their immigration form – death to drug traffickers. If I want to visit Singapore I have to abide by the rules. I cannot say that death penalty is a barbaric punishment. Only if I agree with their requirements and conditions will I be permitted to enter the country.
The Visa – The primary condition required for any human being to enter Makkah or Madina is to say with his lips, La ila ha illallah Muhammed ur Rasulullah meaning that ‘there is no God but Allah and Muhammed (pbuh) is His Messenger.’
Sami,
Actually, I am not of the same Christian persuasion as the person who wrote the quotes you are laughing about.
From the Pope of the Catholic Church:
Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith.— Pope Benedict XVI.
You want to laugh about Christians and their exclusivity?
Let’s try some Koran passages shall we:
Sura3 3:64: “Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers (whom he defined as Christians in the 5th surah “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.) and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: ‘Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!’ ‘Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!’”
When you are done laughing–let me know:)
Ishmael did not have standing (covenant) wise with the Jews–and later–the Christians adopted through the death of Christ. They are illegitmate children-meaning-outside of the law–both in covenant and heir-ship status.
G-d showed Ishmael mercy in the desert and told Hagar He would make of Ishmael a great nation–but He did not promise the future of the world to his heirs.
So–it is that mercy and compassion for your state of incarnation (Ishmael could not help how he was born-no more than Hindu or a Jew or a Christian) that keeps me open-minded and in constant faith that no matter what havoc Islamic terrorist wreak on the world; they will fail.
Have a nice day.
You say this site is one of open dialogue and peace-but you ridicule people who post their opinions?
The Jewish and Christian Bibles (OT) specifically say that Ishmael was not covered in the heir status of the covenant–so 2 out of 3 are better than Muslim 1 out of 3 claims.
carolina lol you are funny, and full of straw mans, also plz quit playing the victim, i havent treated you bad at all, but it seems some Christians love playing the victim.
but now to adress your straw man, lol I NEVER DENIED THAT ISLAM ISNT EXCLUSIVE, i know it is, so you bringing it up is attacking something i never denied. my point is is that CHRISTIANITY is exclusive.
now you can say that anyone can enter heaven, but that ISNT BIBLICAL, and the Bible says otherwise.
as for Islamic terrorists bla bla bla, lol quit going on a red herring, Islamic terrorists will never come close to your terrorist bible, have you read the Old Testament? wow, that book makes al-qaeda look like boy scouts! how many nations did your god order the israelites to wipe out to the last? if anything, your supposed holy God is the terrorist, for ordering the deaths of all men women and children of towns and villages. now go justify that.
also you quote the pope, so you seem to be catholic, plz do fill us in on your catholics history of terrorism.
It is apparent that you do not know how to engage in civil debate. Jesus dying for all of humanity is what the Pope was referring to–that it is an unmerited gift on humanity’s part made by Jesus.
Continue to hate and wish others to burn in hell because you are exclusive in ideology; however, I prefer to love all of humanity and not just Christians.
BTW, my husband is a Hindu of the Brahman caste. So-I doubt very seriously that I am the one who is narrow minded in this conversation.
Face it.
You started this site as a sham open dialogue blog only so that you could spew hate and laugh at people of other faiths.
You do Islam a disservice and you do yourself a disservice.
Have a nice day.
What terrorist act did Catholics commit? Are they blowing up planes in Arab countries and abroad? Are they suicide bombers?
Oh–you mean the Crusades– that period of time when Islamic rulers TAXED Christians so they FORCED conversion of Christians through threats of poverty–and now those same theocracies BAN all other faiths.
Sure-okay–
We’ll go there if you would like….
I have Arab Catholic friends in Arabian countries. They can’t be Catholic openly and have to hide their faith in fear because of tolerant Islamic governments.
I have no problems with the existence of Islam. My only problem with Islam is forcing people to remain Muslim who wish to convert and forcing women to wear garb that they might choose not to wear if they didn’t fear getting their faces slashed.
My former brother-in-law (Arab) slashed the face of his cousin because her sleeves went above her elbow. And he is of a highly wealthy and educated family. Ask him how he feels about what he did now–he wishes he had never done it because it is wrong to force people to do what they don’t want to do.
I spent some time thinking, and I realized I had more to say:
All religious people have made mistakes. It takes way too long to write out in a response post but the short of it:
Adam and Eve fell from grace. Archangel Michael felt bad that G-d wanted to punish them more severely so he asked to go down to earth and help them survive in their new, fallen world–out of compassion. Jesus felt that same compassion for us and our fallen state and wanted to help us find G-d. And I believe that Mohammad also moved initially from a pure heart in wanting to bring others closer to G-d. However, when we read the harsh parts of G-d’s word in the Bible–I believe that G-d wants us to feel compassion and say–No, G-d–I don’t want you to smite my enemies–I want you to bless them and help us to get along.
That is what I always pray for.
You point out the ugly parts and mistakes of our religion and throw it in our faces so I returned the favor; however,
What does that solve?
Do you see where I am going with this?
If you want this blog to be successful (it is new) and to be a place of lively and inspiring debate–you have to be willing to see that we all need to be more compassionate–the same kind of compassionate that led to AMichael helping Adam and Eve, G-d helping Ishmael and Hagar survive the desert, Jesus dying to teach us a better way to live, and Mohammad being willing to die to help others understand G-d.
I don’t care much about heaven. I care about the here and now and I want to LIVE on earth-not be a dead walking soul here.
Maybe you think I hate Muslims or that I have anger? Sometimes I feel anger thinking that terrorists are ruining things for other people and so I pray that they make better choices in the future.
I read the book, Lost Blood, by a Palestinian named Marco Abraham–I met him.
I still have horrible images of the atrocities in that book. I pray every single day for that never to happen again–to anyone–Muslim, Jew, Christian, Hindu.
Life is precious and it is a gift to be enjoyed.
Peace be with you and Happy New Year!
hey dont get mad at me because your Bible doesnt support your liberal made up theology! im sorry if the truth hurts, but your Bible does teach that unbelievers will burn in hell, you are not mainstream when you say otherwise, and that is a fact.
but heyyyyy whatever you want, that is what Christianity is for the most part for Christians, they just invent what they like, and say its Christianity.
carolina, have you ever read the Bible? and i mean the ENTIRE BIBLE, i dont think you have. your talking about being compassionate etc etc, yet have you read the Bible where your God orders the armies to wipe out every man, woman, and child?????????? with the sword, destroy their entire town, and let it all burn, have you read those verses????
Yes, my point is that we have the CHOICE not to do those things….I think the Bible is a relic that shows our progress away from animal behavior. No one should kill in G-d’s name-no one. Also, I don’t really follow the OT that much because Jesus came and taught us how to care about others and how to accept our fates-whatever they might be-in a peaceful manner. He never went into combat. He chose to allow himself to die because he knew fighting was futile.
I have read the Bible and so has the Pope. I’ve also read the Koran and the Vedas.
Carolina, according to the New Testament, Jesus will come back and fight. 🙂
i dont understand this, why do you even call yourself a Christian when your beliefs are radically different from the Bible? Im not trying to be rude or offensive in this, i just dont see the point in it, why dont you just disregard the Christian title and Bible, its just holding you back and making it very difficult for you to be consistent.
again, im not trying to be rude, but your liberal beliefs are not Biblical at all, the Bible is quite the opposite of what you are saying. you have made your own theology up, a theology that suits you, and personally satisfies you, which is all fine, but dont claim this theology is from the Bible or Christianity, because it isnt.
you dont believe in hell or punishment for none believers, well the Bible does and promises it.
you dont believe in violence in the name of God, rather peace etc, well the Bible does believe in violence, and the OT is filled with it, and when Jesus comes back in the clouds with his angels he will commit violence and kill those who reject him and then bring in the kingdom of god were only the true believers shall dwell.
so you see, everything your saying is contradicted by the Bible, so really, why call yourself Christian, and subscribe yourself to the Bible? just call yourself a spiritual theist who believes in a higher power, just not the Christian version.
I know Archangel Michael is also special to Muslims, but have you ever wondered why he, an angel (spirit), carries a sword? Can he really kill Satan (a spirit) with a sword?
Perhaps humanity was only capable of literal understanding in history.
To kill with a sword:
To extinguish a theology by cutting it down to size and exposing its faults.
The fault was not G-d’s but faulty human interpretation.
AM kills Satan by exposing his lies and dooms Satan to a life of limited power–nothing less–nothing more….he basically renders his power impotent.
G-d does not ask us to kill and sacrifice other human beings for him-he proved that when he asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac and stopped him to show him that he was NOT like all the other false gods who accepted human sacrifice. He sacrificed himself to get humanity to stop sacrificing in His name–but–unfortunately–some sects of certain religions still kill people in the name of G-d.
Nowhere in the NT does it say that Jesus will come back and fight. He will come again and those who are evil will have chosen their fates-to be permanently stripped from G-d’s presence–as it was their choice to not be in the presence of G-d.
Jesus was and never will be a warrior who fights; he is above fighting.
Jesus was not successful to establish the rule of the God on the earth in his ministry thats why Muhammad was sent and finally the rule of God was established by the hands of Muhammad.
Allah knows best.
The bible teaches that Satan, the ruler of this world, offered all the kingdoms of earth to Jesus but he refused (Mt 4:7-10). Satan currently posseses this earth (Rev 12:9) but Jesus is coming back one day to take it from him by force.
JESUS CAME THE FIRST TIME TO GIVE ETERNAL LIFE
Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
JESUS WILL RETURN ONE DAY TO POSSESS THE EARTH
Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Okay. I would like for you to understand that the OT shows G-d dealing with an IGNORANT (unenlightened) humanity. Humanity was not sophisticated and was animal-like. Neither one of us probably would have survived in such brute conditions of random raping, pillaging….
Do you really want G-d to keep treating us that way?
Yes–there is punishment for evil doers–the punishment of not knowing G-d and not dying in peace–a soul that dies without peace cannot be in the presence of G-d.
A soul that knows G-d knows that there is nothing to worry about. No evil may be committed that is so horrendous to take him or her away from G-d.
I’m not saying that I don’t believe G-d has not punishment for evil people–I am just saying that those fires that they will experience are not literal–they are an intense understanding of what was had and what was lost–eternal torment.
I just remembered something.
You want Biblical proof for my position that we have a choice about our behavior?
When G-d put the Tree of Knowledge in Eden-he told AMichael that he wanted to see what humans would do.
G-d wants us to learn from our mistakes.
And if he wanted any of us dead–he could kill us easily.
I don’t know if you have seen this blog or not, but it is very well done and it explains things very well.
http://kashifshahzada.wordpress.com/2009/12/20/does-the-qur%E2%80%99an-support-anti-semitism/
“Okay. I would like for you to understand that the OT shows G-d dealing with an IGNORANT (unenlightened) humanity. Humanity was not sophisticated and was animal-like. Neither one of us probably would have survived in such brute conditions of random raping, pillaging….”
you are a liar who has SWALLOWED Hook, line n sinker the ot propaganda against non-jewish races. i can tell you that non-jewish races ACCORDING to your own ot WHERE MORE HUMANE than the israelites. unlike the izraelites blitzkrich, samuel says :
“1 Samuel 30:1 Then it happened when David and his men came to Ziklag on the third day, that the Amalekites had made a raid on the Negev and on Ziklag, and had overthrown Ziklag and burned it with fire; 2 and they took captive the women and all who were in it, both small and great, without killing anyone, and carried them off and went their way. 3 When David and his men came to the city, behold, it was burned with fire, and their wives and their sons and their daughters had been taken captive.”
The Israelite method of warfare was to leave no one alive to breathe, but in this account of the Amalekite raid on Ziklag, they killed no one but took the population captive instead. It seems rather obvious whose “standards” of warfare were more noble, if war can in any sense be considered noble.
Don’t give me that “IGNORANT ” BS CLAIM, worshipper of flesh n bones!
And i and humanity don’t need jesus’s cheap sacrifice. 100dreds and thousands and millions have SUFFERED FAR WORSE than jesus for A GOOD CAUSE I.E build hospitals, FIGHT INJUSTICE , education for the poor, ect ANd when i make SACRIFICES I DON’T expect humans to REWARD me, my sacrifices ARE HIDDEN.
The question of the purpose of life is one that keeps creeping up in religious discussions. People will always wonder as to if there is a God, why did he create me. The Quran does not shy away from answering this, and it says emphatically in one place:
And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.
51:56, Sahih International
This verse has often been a subject of attack by people who dislike Islam and this verse also creates a question mark in the minds of muslims. This is a result of attaching a very limited meaning to the term “Worship”. The term is understood to mean prayer by some or following shareeah laws by others.
As per the quran however worshipping Allah has altogether a different purpose. Let us ask the Quran what worshipping Allah means, and why should we worship him. The answer is provided quite early in the Quran, Allah says:
O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous –
2:21, Sahih International
So what do we have here, Allah swt is asking us to worship him for us to become righteous. That naturally raises the question as to what is righteousness? The Quran again gives us the answer,
Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.
2:177, Sahih International
The definition of righteousness is indeed amazing. It demonstrates an unbelievable insight into the human nature. I cannot stop admiring the beauty of this verse everytime I read it.
But let us stop and analyze the conclusion that has emerged. Allah is saying that he created us to worship him, which will lead us to being righteous (as defined).
So in short, the purpose of life as per the quran is righteousness.
jews deny hell fire and claim that it is not FOUND IN the hebrew torah. this caroline is imposing jewish belief on a greek text written in pagan greek language for a pagan greek audience.
check link:
http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/topic/3112/t/truth—claim—-Jews–Jesus-wrote—–claim–Jesus—Messi.html?page=3
“Jesus was and never will be a warrior who fights; he is above fighting”
AND IT IS FIGHTING WHICH allowed your pagan religion to spread. it is fighting which allows INJUSTICE to be FOUGHT.VIOLENCE is required to apprehend murderer and rapists.”tunring the other cheek” is bs if it is the only avenue for peace, even yeshu recognised this fact in the temple when he turned over the tables and drove out those who bought and sold by use of a whip.i guess the traders thought to themselves, “WHAT A PEACEFUL HOOOOOLIGAAAN” !
jesus is not above fighting he is in fighting. your religion tried to strip out violence attributed to jesus in the gt because the gospels were targeting a PAGAN AUDIENCE . according to the pagans their gods don’t go WILD in the temple or speak harshly. so yeshu HAD TO BE AdJUSTED like a door knob so he can BLEND in with PAGAN beliefs.
sUCH SIckening lies by you christians!
it is the hebrew god who said go kill the cannanites becoz of WHAT was done to your (izraelite) ANCESTORS 4 CENTURIES ealier.hebrew god is a god of VICARIOUS punishment, he loves the BLOOD of innocent , and allows his izralite soldiers to carry out massacre of AMalekits becoz of what the amalekit ancestors had don’t to the izraelites on thier way out of egypt. this vacrious punishment is the cause of much bloodshed in the world. the nt writers stole it and attributed it to the jews “his blood be UPON US AND OUR CHILDREN”
The church used these vicarious/sadistic verses in the nt which fueled anti- semiticism for centuries and even today.
My point in using that Surah was to show that he was doing to the Christian Bible what people who hate Islam do to the Qu’ran–so it involved a bit of thinking on your part.
Have a great new year and peace be with you all.
Spencer–I was referring to the fires found in the NT in the book of Revelations. I believe in the Jewish belief that we determine our distance from G-d and that lack of knowing G-d is our lack of understanding–and is our ultimate torment–and the fires in the NT represent Jewish ideology.
Thanks for insulting me.
“Thanks for insulting me.”
OKAY I AM SORRY . FORGIVE ME FOR INSULTING U.
Hi, Spencer,
I forgive you and thank you for your kindness.
I realize Christians haven’t always been kind to Muslims and Jews and really–I waited a long time to be baptized because I really didn’t want to take sides in humanity.
I mainly just focus on Jesus as he seemed kind to me–harsh at times–but kind–
So-I understand your anger directed toward Christians.
I didn’t come here to convert anyone. I respect other people’s right to worship as they please–my husband is not Christian.
Anyway-I’m glad this thread changed course. I actually felt bad about the negative turn it had taken.
Peace be with you and please forgive me if offended you all-that really wasn’t my intent.
good article
Jesus was the Son of Joseph.He was an incredible man whom many can learn from as well.I have to seriously doubt about “Those whom do not accept him shall dwell in the “Eternal Infernal Gates of Hell”.The closest the World has had to a Messiah in Judaiah-Christian beliefs within the past century would have to be “Mother Theresa”.
Christians did battle in many lands so did the Muslims.
First of all…How can you even compare a place here on earth to heaven…and another thing your Quran is also barring gays, lesbians, non-believers, satanist…from entering the kingdom of God! unless you’re god lets anyone in!!! Are you serious I almost threw up when I read this…
So please use another example because that one is absolutely ridiculous.
Peace,
First Off, does the Holy Quran ever says that the House of ALLAH is in Mecca? Well, nowhere in the Holy Quran says that.
Does the Holy Quran forbids the people of the Book from the Bait? Yes only the Israelites.
Does the Holy Quran forbids the pagans? Yes, pagans are forbidden!
Peace
Peace
The Israelites were only forbidden when they refuse to entre the Holy Land and for that their punishment was that they wandered in the land for 40 years.
People of the Book is NOT forbidden in the Holy Land as long as they believe in ALLAH and the last days –
AQ 02:62 – Indeed, those who believed, that is, those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [Gentiles] – those [among them] who believed in ALLAH and the Last Day and did righteousness – will have their reward with their LORD, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.