Christianity

Debate: Which is the true path for salvation? Christianity or Islam [Ijaz Ahmed, MDI Trinidad vs Rev Stevens]

MDI recently took part in a debate all the way in Trinidad and Tobago, with the topic of the discussion on whether Islam or Christianity is the path to salvation.

Representing MDI was Ijaz Ahmed, with his debating colleague Reverend Steven. The following debate version is the raw version with no editing.

116 replies »

  1. Reg,

    You wrote: “Notice what I said: “Similarly Jews could call their god by the Arabic word “allah” if this term was used only as a general term for deity. They would then not have in mind the Christian triune god, or a Meccan deity with three daughters or any deity other than YHWH.”

    Response: And I proved to you above that Allah was never used as a generic name as it is the name used by all Arabs only for the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world. The name was never used for any other than He alone by all users of the Name. This destroys your cherished assumption that the Name could be used as generic term.

    Pre-Islamic Arab henotheists used the word Allah only for the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world.
    Pre-Islamic Arabs that recognized idols as some deities also used the Name Allah only for the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world. They recognized Allah alone as the Creator God and that they had idols only as intercessors.

    Pre-Islamic Jews used the Name Allah only for the Creator of the world.

    Pre-Islamic Arab Christians used the Name Allah only for the Creator of the world.

    Muslims ever use the Name Allah only for the Creator and God of the world.

    So, all used the Name Allah for the true God only who alone created the heavens and the earth. This is what Islamic, archaeological, historical and linguistic evidences established.

    Therefore, to prove your highly biased assumption, you have to bring evidences (not assumptions as you do) to show that any of these groups in the time of the Prophet and before used the Name Allah for any other than the Invisible Heavenly Creator. It is only then that you can maintain that the Allah of these people was different from the Allah of that people. And the evidences are enormously against you!!

    You are the type that think that since your God is truine and Muslims do not view God as truine then they must be worshipping different gods. This is quite a fallacious reasoning. The fact is that they both have the same God in mind but differed in their conception of His nature. The Jews also do not believe that their God is truine and do not believe that Jesus is God’s unique son. Yet. Christians never say that they worship different god from the Jewish God. Dr. Rick Brown reveals:

    “People also have different concepts of God. Even within cultures that share a Christian heritage, sub-cultural conceptualizations of God can be quite different. Mormons, for example, think of God as a man who became a god, created the earth, joined with spirit women to beget spirits who would be born as humans, and had a physical union with Mary to beget Jesus. Jews and Muslims typically think of God as one and indivisible, without distinctions of person, and without being incarnate in any way as the Messiah, but Jews also conceive of God as preferring Jews over others, whereas Muslims think of God as preferring themselves to Jews.10 Like Jews and Muslims, Jesus-only Protestants are anti-Trinitarian, but they view Jesus as God. Liberal Protestants do not view God as incarnate in Jesus but as revealing his characteristics and message through Jesus. Some Christians view God as punitive and requiring regular propitiation through the sacrifice of the mass. Atheists typically share the concept of God as judgmental and punitive but without grace, and they conveniently add the property of non-existent. Deists view God as distant, uncaring, and uninvolved. And then there are evangelicals. All of these people use the same word ‘God’ to refer to the same entity, yet they have different concepts of who God is. The significance is this: One cannot change a person’s concept of God merely by changing the name he uses for God. Any name that denotes God for someone will evoke that person’s concept of God. What is required for reconceptualization is new information about God that will change the concept itself, and that is the task of the Bible.” ( International Journal of Frontier Mission, 2006, page 81).

    Therefore, it is just basic ignorance of theology to argue that just because Muslims and Trinitarian Christians differ in their conception of God’s nature then they must be referring to different gods.

    See my next comment…

  2. You wrote: ” I quoted from the QURAN to show that the Jews clearly rejected Allah as a false deity. Anyone who insults a deity by name, whether figuratively or otherwise, considers both deity and his name to be worthless. THIS is why Allah threatened to roast them.”

    Response: The figurative expressions used by these Arab Jews do not signify rejection of either the Name or what the Name refers to. The expression “Allah’s Hands are tied up” is obviously not literal even in the English rendition. It is called “majaz” in Arabic and connotes the sense that if Allah needs charity then it is as if He is not giving but demanding. It is for this fact that the response in the following verse is not about the identity of God but denying the charge only and saying that they erred for making the remark. While in Qur’an 3:181 the remark that Allah was poor while they were for the urge for them to be charitable to be paid, rewarded, by Allah was also figurative. It connotes that if Allah could be said to need charity then He is poor while they are rich for being asked to give out. Immediately then, in Qur’an 3:183, the same Jews said that they had covenant with Allah. They were contemporaneous with the Qur’an and were Arabs who had the Name Allah in their vocabulary and who could not be put terms for God they don’t agree with in their mouth as they would protest it being contemporaries.

    Therefore, the remarks in their contexts could not be construed as made just to reject the word Allah or who the word referred to.

    Now, even a little thought will quickly expose your false assumption concerning the remarks. These Arab Jews obviously did not just insult just the word but not the referent. And what the Word Allah refers to for all Muslims ever? It evidently refers to the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world alone. So, which were these Jews insulting? The mere word and not what it refers to ? Or did they insult what the word refers to which is the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world? If they just insulted only the term not what it refers to, they were just crazy! If they insulted what the word refers to, which is the Heavenly Creator of the world, then they are just blasphemers even in their own religion!

    You just ASSUME that what they referred by their use of the Name Allah was different from what the Muslims referred by their use of the same Name. This is mere assumption belied by the evidences presented.

    Therefore, your assumption concerning these two figurative remarks of the Jews was wrong from every angle which shows your clinging on this argument to be quite ridiculous.

    As said severally, you maintain this assumption concerning the remarks by cherry picking from the same source only, by ignoring all other evidences including archaeology and history against the assumption.

    Now, let me show you from your Bible that the HEBREW Jews insulted YHWH!

    Isaiah 1: 2-4 reveal:

    “2 Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth;For the Lords peaks,“Sons I have reared and brought up, But they have revolted against Me.3 “An ox knows its owner,And a donkey its master’s manger,But Israel does not know, My people do not understand.”4 Alas, sinful nation,People weighed down with iniquity,[a]Offspring of evildoers,Sons who act corruptly!They have abandoned the Lord,They have despised the Holy One of Israel,They have turned away[b]from Him.” (Isaiah 1:2-4).

    Note that Isreal revolted against and despised YHWH!

    So, to argue like you, if despising a deity is not insulting him and not rejecting him then Israel here did not reject YHWH!

    If Jews have the record of even despising the God they worship then it will not be suprising for them to demonstrate the same attitude with the Prophet of Islam! And if that attitude of theirs did not reflect against God then why the same attitude with regards the Qur’an reflect against the term use for God in Arabic or the Heavenly God HImself meant by the term in Arabic and Islam?

    The Bible says of them: “But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.” (2 Chronicles 36:16).

    People that despised YHWH’s words are just as blasphemous as they reject him!

    If they could do this but still be believers in YHWH, then why do you complain of their figurative remarks against the Qur’an?! And if they just became disbelievers by despising God’s Word then , why should the same attitude to the Qur’an be a valid argument against either the term the Arabs used for the same God or the Heavenly God Himself referred by the Arabic term?!

    Prophet Jeremiah says:

    “Then I replied, “Ah, Lord GOD, you have completely deceived this people and Jerusalem when you said, ‘You will have peace,’ while the sword is at their throat!” (Jeremiah 4:10).

    Here Jeremiah describes God as a deceiver! There is no insult more than this to God !! He insulted YHWH by name !! But in spite of the insult, you cannot say that Jeremiah did not believed in YHWH as he insulted him!

    In short, your assumption concerning some remarks of some Jews in the Qur’an is invalid and ridiculous from every angle except that of biased Islamaphobia.

    See my next comment….

  3. Now, you people are fond of referring to the pre-Islamic Arabs error of regarding the angels as females goddesses and even had idol representations of some three of the goddesses known as Lat, Manat and Uzzah. You never regarded it as just aberration of them concerning the angels but just use it to claim that since some Arab idolaters regarded Allah as having daughters then Allah could not be the true God. You usually do not take it as their wrong conception concerning Allah as even they themselves admitted that Allah was alone the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world whom they sought to please through their idols.

    Now, you people seem to be unaware that the ancient Hebrews were idolaters and that Judaism arose out of the idolatrous society. Worse still, idolaters since before 8th Century B.C worshipped YHWH along with His Wife Asherah!

    “Asherah’s connection to Yahweh, according toStavrakopoulou, is spelled out in both the Bible and an 8th century B.C. inscription on pottery found in the Sinai desert at a site called Kuntillet Ajrud.”The inscription is a petition for a blessing,” she shares. “Crucially, the inscription asks for a blessing from ‘Yahweh and his Asherah.’ Here was evidence that presented Yahweh and Asherah as a divine pair. And now a handful of similar inscriptions have since been found, all of which help to strengthen the case that the God of the Bible once had a wife.” (http://news.discovery.com/history/religion/god-wife-yahweh-asherah-110318.htm ).

    Dr. Claude Marriottini, Conservative Christian professor of the Old Testament, admits:

    “The first is an inscription that was found in an 8th century tomb at the site of Khirbet el Qom, in the heart of Judah, in a tomb. The inscription is a prayer, and contains the names of YHWH and that of Ashera, the latter is invoked three times. On one side of the inscription a crude tree appears to have been incised as well.Another famous inscription was found at the site of Kuntillet Ajrud, on the border of Judah. It also dates to approximately the same time period as the Khirbet el Qom findings.The site is scattered with dedicatory inscriptions to “YHWH and his ASHERA”. One stands out in particular: “To YHWH of SHOMRON and his ASHERA” (Meshel 2012: 86-101).Shomron or Samaria was the capitol of Israel, very far from this peripheral border of Judah. Along with the inscription, the drawings found with the inscriptions match the iconography found on the shrines, for instance the Tree of Life, with volutes and lotus blossoms for branches, feeding caprids, and a lion standing underneath this tree of life.Many people today believe that the religion of Israel was strictly monotheistic. It is true that faithful Yahwists believed that Yahweh was the only true God. However, archaeological evidence shows that many people in Israel and Judah believed in other gods. In her article, Fridman quotes Erin Darby, professor of religious studies at the Universityof Tennessee-Knoxville, who said that “not even the Bible claims that most ancient Judeans were strict monotheists.”Darby concludes, “The typical version of monotheism associated with ancient Judah is the result of modern people choosing a few texts in the Bible to then reconstruct their ideal picture of what ancient Judeans did.” (http://claudemariottini.com/2013/09/18/gods-wife/ ).

    Professor Mariottini also reveals:
    “First, it must be said that the development of monotheism in Israel is not as easy to understand as some Christians believe. Many Christians believe that ancient Israel’s understanding of God was monotheistic from the beginning. They believe that the people of Israel have consistently worshiped God alone.One of my students wrote that monotheism begins with Genesis 1:1: “In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth.” In his view, since God created everything, then Israel was called to believe in only one God, the true creator of the universe.However, when one studies the concept of monotheism in ancient Israel, one concludes that many Israelites were not monotheists. In this post, I will use only the biblical evidence to illustrate this view. I will avoid the archaeological evidence because some readers may say that the evidence is based on a humanistic understanding of the biblical text. In the near future, I may write a series of posts dealing with the development of monotheism in Israel.”(http://claudemariottini.com/2013/09/23/monotheism-and-the-faith-of-israel/ ).

    Therefore, can we conclude like you that since YHWH had a Wife known as Asherah who was an idol then YHWH must not be the true God who has no wife?!

  4. REG

    My friend, open the Arabic Bible and you will see Allah as the God of Christian Arabs but not YHWH. If the Arab Christians were using another name for their Christian God before and after Islam then, Mr. REG provide us with that Christian Gods name.

    There are Arab Jews as well. The speak Arabic but are Jews and they call God Allah before and after Islam. We have Iraqi Jews, Yemeni Jews, Iranian Jews etc. and they call God Allah. If Allah is a bad name as you claim or was invented by Islam, why are they non Muslims using it? Whether it is generic or not my friend, all Jews, Christians, Pagan Arabs and Muslims call the creator of everything as Allah. You cannot deny that.

    It is the representation of Allah or the creator of everything that differs.

    1. Muslims and Jews and Unitarian Christians Allah is the Only One God of Abraham as stressed in the Old Testament = True God

    Evidence:

    1.”since indeed God is one [hen]” Romans 3:30
    2.”to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
    3.”there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
    1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
    9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
    7.”Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God” 1 Timothy 1:17

    Mr. REG, our beloved prophet was commanded by Allah to tell the Arab pagans of Mecca to stop worshiping idols and worship the Only One God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc. and so what is wrong with that?

    Consider this

    BIBLE:
    .”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20

    QURAN:
    47:19 – You shall know that: “There is no other god beside ALLAH”,

    And your Allah is One Allah: There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

    REG did you note the same message commanded by Allah to our prophet to the Pagans and Christians? at least the Trinitarians. The Unitarian Christians are a little better because they believe in One God. Your fellow Christians reject God is 3 and at least support the Quran on this one.

    2. Christians believe Allah is 3 Beings(Persons) in One. So they are worshiping 3 beings because every person is a being. I have not come across a person who is not a being and this is polytheism and or idolatory.

    3. The Arab Pagans also like Christian Trinitarians and Unitarians added sons, daughters and other Gods to Allah and is polytheism and false God.

    You wrote:
    Eli means “My God” and is clearly not a name. Jesus recognised only one name for deity and it was not Allah. Jesus’ own name has YHWH as its divine element and means “salvation is from YHWH”.

    Jesus did not pronounce the name YHWH out of respect for the Jewish prohibition. Uttering this name was considered blasphemy and was punishable with death by stoning.

    You said: “You claim without a shred of linguistic, archaeological or historical evidence that Allah is just a generic, common, name.”

    Notice what I said: “Similarly Jews could call their god by the Arabic word “allah” if this term was used only as a general term for deity. They would then not have in mind the Christian triune god, or a Meccan deity with three daughters or any deity other than YHWH.”

    And I correct you:
    “My God” is English language and was not there when Jesus called his God on the cross. Eli is Hebrew and Jesus spoke Aramaic, so cried to his God as Elah, Elaha, or Allaha and it is Allah in Arabic, so Jesus himself called his God in his mother tongue as Allah and who are you to accuse Muslims of calling God Allah when Jesus called his God Allaha. Let your superstitious YHWH be with you and do not impose it on us because it is not scriptural.

    You are the believer of unscriptural Jewish superstitions by writing this
    //
    Notice what I said: “Similarly Jews could call their god by the Arabic word “allah” if this term was used only as a general term for deity. They would then not have in mind the Christian triune god, or a Meccan deity with three daughters or any deity other than YHWH.”
    //

    My friend, the Jew and Christians call God Allah but they all believe that Allah is the creator of everything as the Quran described that Allah.

    If a Christian misrepresents a creator of everything to be a son to someone or a lesser God, then that is their prerogative. The day of judgement, they will account for that when they face their creator who is a creator of everything and is not a son of anyone.

    Quran 112
    “In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
    Say (O Muhammad) He is God the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone

    Thanks

  5. REG

    You wrote

    Notice what I said: “Similarly Jews could call their god by the Arabic word “allah” if this term was used only as a general term for deity. They would then not have in mind the Christian triune god, or a Meccan deity with three daughters or any deity other than YHWH.”

    I write

    If you are a fast thinker and unbiased, you will realized that Prophet Mohammed preached the EXACT Allah of the Jews i.e. One God of Abraham and warns the Christians, Pagans and all humanity to come back to the same One God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and everybody that the Jews always believed. To the Jews, Allah reminded them that, yes Jesus is a true prophet of God and they should not reject him for he is the messiah and is sent by God who is One God and not 3 beings(persons).

    Allah reminded anyone that He is not a man and therefore Jesus is not God but Allah’s messenger.

    To the Jews the messiah cannot be killed on the cross and the Quran says yes Jesus is the messiah and was not killed on the cross. Some Jews are still waiting for their messiah who can’t be killed on the cross and Jesus will come back as their messiah and tell them that he was not killed on the cross.

    Thanks

  6. You are correct that when you say: “It is clear that the Qur’an is an Arabic document. Thus it only translates the speeches it quoted of all the past none Arabs into Arabic language being the language in which the book was written. Thus it has to replace the terms of deity in their respective languages with corresponding terms in arabic.”

    However I did not mean that this was conclusive proof of anything but that this was ONE of the things we should take into consideration.

    003:052 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: “Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?” Said the disciples: “We are Allah’s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

    Since Jesus and his followers when speaking would not have pronounced YHWH, what term for deity is here being replaced by Allah?

    You said: “Response: I addressed you misconception about the Jews remarks in question. So mere repeating them in derogatory words won’t make them any better. And it is a lie to say that Jewish Bible does not recognize Allah as the Name of the true God. See their ancient arabic translations pointed out above to see!…”

    I have no misconceptions about the Jewish critique of Allah. Neither did Ibn Kathir who prayed for endless curses to descend on the Jews, and neither did Allah who threatened to subject them to unthinkable tortures in his Hell. I am not trying to make the Jewish remarks look worse than they are, they speak for themselves. It is you who are desperately trying to dilute their venom because of their implications for the name Allah. Since the Jews did not recognise any name for god other than YHWH, you need to show where the Jewish translators have stated that they recognised the corresponding word to be the equivalent of YHWH.

  7. I would say that anyone who despises a deity whether YHWH or Allah has rejected such a deity as false. That is obvious as no one despises a deity whom they consider to be the true God. The Jewish Bible is the history of Israelite unfaithfulness towards YHWH, should we conclude from this that such honesty only confirms the reliability of the Jewish scriptures which endlessly condemn the Israelites for their repeated sinfulness towards their god?

    You said: “First , the Qur’an – which is the oldest Arabic document in existence and which was contemporaneous with the Arab Jews and Christians – quoted the contemporary Arab Jews and Christians using the Name Allah for the only true God…”

    You are absolutely right that it was the “Revelation” which so many rejected as false. And it was in reference to the QUOTES from this “Revelation” that my remarks were made. Since Muhammad’s contemporaries rejected the “Revelation” as false this did not reflect well on the quotes this revelation contained.

    You said: “So, all used the Name Allah for the true God only who alone created the heavens and the earth.”

    Let’s apply this to Christianity:

    So, all (including Christians) used the Name Allah for the true God only (i.e. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) who alone created the heavens and the earth.

    or

    So, Christians used the Name Allah for the true God only i.e. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit who alone created the heavens and the earth.

    I don’t see how Muslims or Jews could accept this, and it doesn’t get better when we apply it to the Meccan deity.

    You said: “The Jews also do not believe that their God is truine and do not believe that Jesus is God’s unique son. Yet. Christians never say that they worship different god from the Jewish God.”

    But the Jews do say they worship a different god from the Christians.

    You said “Immediately then, in Qur’an 3:183, the same Jews said that they had covenant with Allah”

    In the light of Quran 5:64 and 3:181 this verse only makes sense if the Jews had used “Allah” in 3:183 as a generic term. If the Jews used Allah as a proper name in 3:183 then their remarks in 5:64 and 3:181 are not credible.

    You said: “Therefore, can we conclude like you that since YHWH had a Wife known as Asherah who was an idol then YHWH must not be the true God who has no wife?!”

    The Jews would not reject YHWH as a false god, because of someone ascribing to him a wife. That is because their scriptures tell them that YHWH is the name of the true god. They would just reject such an ascription. With regards to Allah it is different, since they are nowhere taught in their scriptures to accept Allah as the name of the true god. So if someone ascribed a wife to Allah then in this case they could reject BOTH the deity and the ascription, since they are not under any compulsion from their scriptures to recognise Allah as the name for the true god.

    If Muhammad had come to the Jews speaking in the name of YHWH then they would have rejected him on the grounds of his message contradicting their Torah but they would not have rejected YHWH or blasphemed his name.

    Even if some Jews had chosen to accept Allah as the Arabic equivalent of YHWH then this would have been based on purely on their own human reasoning and not on any guidance from their scriptures.

    You said: “If Allah is a bad name as you claim…”

    I hope I have never said such a thing. Even though some of my views may be offensive, that is not the purpose of them.
    Reply ↓

  8. REGP

    wrote
    Since the Jews did not recognise any name for god other than YHWH, you need to show where the Jewish translators have stated that they recognised the corresponding word to be the equivalent of YHWH.

    I respond
    For Allah’s sake stop this racist and nonsense behaviour by anyone be it Jew or you. Is the God Almighty for Jews alone???????????????????? For them to choose the name they liked for Him?

    Iraqi Jews, Morrocan Jews, Yemeni Jews, Palestinian Jews, Jordanian Jews, Iranian Jews etc. knows Allah as the creator of everything and as their God before and after prophet Mohammed. The same applies to the Pagan Arabs or Christian Arabs, that is why you can find Allah in the Christian Bible. No Arab Christian has ever objected Allah as his God, that is why you can find it in their scriptures. So what you are writing here is baseless. The Christian Arabs and Jewish Arab like Allah in their Bible that is why they do not object to that.

  9. You said: “If you are a fast thinker and unbiased, you will realized that Prophet Mohammed preached the EXACT Allah of the Jews i.e. One God of Abraham and warns the Christians, Pagans and all humanity to come back to the same One God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and everybody that the Jews always believed.”

    Even a superficial reading of the Torah will very quickly show that Allah is a different god from YHWH. In view of this it is highly credible that the Jews said to Muhammad:

    Ishaq:269 “‘For our part we don’t see how your Qur’an recitals are arranged anything like our Torah is.’ ‘You know quite well that the Qur’an is from Allah. You will find it written in the Torah which you have.'”

    The Jews got it right, the Torah and the Quran were worlds apart. The Book in the possession of the Jews seriously contradicted and undermined the validity of the Quran. If YHWH is God then Allah cannot be.

  10. REG

    Wrote
    Even a superficial reading of the Torah will very quickly show that Allah is a different god from YHWH. In view of this it is highly credible that the Jews said to Muhammad

    I corrected him
    Then Arab Christians are worshiping different God from Yahweh because in their Bible you see ALLAH but not YHWH. The Arab Christians will curse you for saying their God is different from Yahweh. You think you are insulting Muslims but insulting Christians, Jews and yourself since according to you any God without the name YHWH is not God.

    You insulted Jesus as well because Jesus called his God on the cross as ELAHI from the his mother tongue which is Elah, Elaha or Allaha witch was derived as Allah in Arabic because Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic are sister languages. Jesus himself called God Allah and by saying Allah is not God, you insulting Jesus Christ.

    REG wrote
    Even a superficial reading of the Torah will very quickly show that Allah is a different god from YHWH. In view of this it is highly credible that the Jews said to Muhammad:

    I corrected him
    REG, then you are in a different world. Read the verses below as a proof of the same God in the Torah and the Quran.

    Consider this

    BIBLE:
    .”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20

    QURAN:
    47:19 – You shall know that: “There is no other god beside ALLAH”,

    And your Allah is One Allah: There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    Proof

    Evidence:

    1.”since indeed God is one [hen]” Romans 3:30
    2.”to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
    3.”there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
    1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
    9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
    7.”Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God” 1 Timothy 1:17

    Mr. REG, our beloved prophet was commanded by Allah to tell the Arab pagans of Mecca to stop worshiping idols and worship the Only One God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc. and so what is wrong with that?

    There is nothing in the Bible that says God is 3 Persons in the Son, the Father and the Holy Spirit. The close verse in New Testament was identified by Christians as a forgery. So do not bring yourself here REG.

  11. @ Mujahid

    I have been keenly following the interesting discussion and I can see that you addressed all the issues except the last one raised above. If you don’t mind, I will like to see how you address it. Thanks.

  12. You said: “So, all used the Name Allah for the true God only who alone created the heavens and the earth.”

    Do not Christians who refer to god as Allah, believe that JESUS is in fact Allah? In other words, a man who lived in first century Palestine is actually the only true god who created the heavens and the earth.

    If Allah is used in Arabic translations of the Bible as a common noun how can it then be the equivalent of YHWH since the latter is NEVER used as a common noun?

    You said: “Let your superstitious YHWH be with you and do not impose it on us because it is not scriptural.”

    I would never want to impose anything on you, but I will remind you of an earlier quote I gave from Shabir Ally with regards to YHWH.

  13. You said “Pre-Islamic Arabs that recognized idols as some deities also used the Name Allah only for the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world.”

    Yet according to Quran 6:108:

    “And insult not those whom they worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall inform them of all that they used to do.”

    Quote:

    Allah prohibits His Messenger and the believers from insulting the false deities of the idolators, although there is a clear benefit in doing so. Insulting their deities will lead to a bigger evil than its benefit, for the idolators might retaliate by insulting the God of the believers, Allah, none has the right to be worshipped but He. `Ali bin Abi Talhah said that Ibn `Abbas commented on this Ayah ﴿6:108 ﴾; “They (disbelievers) said, `O Muhammad! You will stop insulting our gods, or we will insult your Lord.’ Thereafter, Allah prohibited the believers from insulting the disbelievers’ idols(lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge.)” `Abdur-Razzaq narrated that Ma`mar said that Qatadah said, “Muslims used to insult the idols of the disbelievers and the disbelievers would retaliate by insulting Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Allah revealed, (And insult not those whom they worship besides Allah.)” Tafsir Ibn Kathir

    So why were the Arabs prepared to insult Allah if they believed that he was “the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world”?

  14. REG

    Wrote
    You said: “So, all used the Name Allah for the true God only who alone created the heavens and the earth.”

    Do not Christians who refer to god as Allah, believe that JESUS is in fact Allah? In other words, a man who lived in first century Palestine is actually the only true god who created the heavens and the earth.

    If Allah is used in Arabic translations of the Bible as a common noun how can it then be the equivalent of YHWH since the latter is NEVER used as a common noun?

    I corrected REG

    Yes, Christians believe Allah is the creator of everything as the Quran said Allah is the creator of everything. Now, if the Christians believe the creator of everything is himself one of his creations i.e. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, then that is their prerogative and that is their problem not me Sir REG.

    We Muslims believe just like the Arab Christians that Allah is the creator of everything, but the difference is God can never be one of his creations i.e. Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

    If we see the same man wearing a shirt and you see the shirt as red based on your colour perception and I see the shirt white, that does not mean we saw different men. It is the same man but the problem is with the one with a wrong color perception. He must see an ophthalmologist for treatment.

    Recently, there was a dress on the web that some people identified as blue which is correct and some identified the same dress as gold and the owner came and corrected everyone on the TV that the dress is indeed blue.

    The Bible and the Quran corrected everyone and describe Allah as One, Alone and Only. If some people have their perception of God as not Alone, Only and One and died but immortal and 3 persons(beings) in One, then that is their prerogative but they are referring to the same God anyway with wrong perception and not based on Bible or scripture but some councils of Necea,Calcedon etc.

    We all believe in the same Allah as the creator of everything and that is true and that is what the Quran said. The Bible too supports its younger brother the Quran by reminding all humans that Allah is One and Only and there is nothing besides the creator of everything.

    Once again here is my proof and evidence.

    BIBLE:
    .”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20

    QURAN:
    47:19 – You shall know that: “There is no other god beside ALLAH”,

    And your Allah is One Allah: There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    Proof

    Evidence:

    1.”since indeed God is one [hen]” Romans 3:30
    2.”to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
    3.”there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
    1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
    9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
    7.”Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God” 1 Timothy 1:17

    Mr. REG, if Jesus Christ is God, what prevented him from telling the truth that he is in fact God Almighty and he Jesus must be worshiped? Jesus never said he is God and he must be worshiped and the Quran exonerated Jesus Christ of not saying that he is God and must be worshiped.

    Lets not forget the Pagan Arabs and most idol worshipers who believed in One God be Him Allah, Elah, Allaha, God, YHWH, Theos, etc. but added his creations to the One true God and worship them as the Christians do.

    We all believe in the same God but some people misrepresents the same One, Only a Alone God as the Bible said but added God creations to God and worshiping them all and that is idolatry and or polytheism.

    Do not insult Jesus Christ because Jesus when on the cross cried in Aramaic to call his God as Elahi, Allaha which is the Aramiac for Allah. If the Jews do not recognise Jesus God as Elahi, Allaha, or Allah then they insulted Jesus Christ and REG is helping and following them to insult Jesus Christ of Nazareth and that is a sin, infact a big sin to insult Jesus an say Jesus God is not God.

    REG, you insult Islam, you insulted Jesus and is a big sin. Once again, REG do not bring yourself.

    Thanks

  15. REG

    Wrote
    If Allah is used in Arabic translations of the Bible as a common noun how can it then be the equivalent of YHWH since the latter is NEVER used as a common noun?

    I corrected REG

    Of course, the Bible translators and the Good Arab Christians reading the Bible are not wicked racists like you and your Jew counterparts who said Jesus’s God is not God.

    The Bible translators did not just translate the Bible on their whims and caprice just like you and your Jew counterparts but they did their translations based on research, interviews and agreement with their Arab Christians and knew for sure that to an Arab, be him Christian, Jew, Muslim, Pagan or anything the Allah means the creator of everything.

    Allah means the creator of everything, period and full stop. There is nothing like common noun or any equivalent everything unless one wants to be and an extreme arrogant racist and insulted Jesus Christ in the process.

    Both the Bible and the Quran reminded us that the creator of everything has no equivalent.

    Thanks.

  16. REG

    Wrote
    Do not Christians who refer to god as Allah, believe that JESUS is in fact Allah? In other words, a man who lived in first century Palestine is actually the only true god who created the heavens and the earth.

    If Allah is used in Arabic translations of the Bible as a common noun how can it then be the equivalent of YHWH since the latter is NEVER used as a common noun?

    I corrected REG
    Christians believe Jesus is in fact YHWH too. Don’t they? and the Jews told the Christians that Jesus is a man and therefore can not be God or YHWH.

    YHWH or ALLAH or THEOS or GOD etc. can only be one and only alone and true God as the Bible said, no matter any ones believe. Christian believe does not make Jesus the only one true God of Abraham. It is only their believe. Muslims and Jews did not add anyone to the true God of Abraham but the Christians, Hindus, Rastafarians etc. did.

    Islam and the Quran corrected the both of them and said yes Jesus is God’s creation and therefore is not qualified to be God but he is sent by the only one true and alone God who has no other gods besides him just as the Bible said in so many places.

    In other words Christians must believe Jesus is not God and the Jews must believe Jesus is God’s messenger and a messiah(anointed). Anointed does not mean God. The Quran reminded the Jews who believed their messiah cannot be crucified that yes their messiah is not crucified. He will return to set them free and build God’s kingdom on earth in which only one Allah will be worshiped as the Muslims are doing right now-worshiping one Allah(God).

    Islam and the Quran corrected them all i.e. Jews, Christians, idol worshipers etc. and all mankind to worship only one true God of Abraham and to not associate, ascribe, add etc. any partner to HIM- The only one true and alone God of Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc.

    Proof and evidence

    Sura 112

    1.Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
    2.Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
    3.He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
    4.And there is none like unto Him.

    What is wrong with Prophet Mohammed preaching to idol worshipers to stop their practice and worship the only one true God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.?

    Even if you do not want to become a Muslim, as a believe of God, it is incumbent on you to respect it because of its message. Some wicked people do not understand this.

  17. You said: “Read the verses below as a proof of the same God in the Torah and the Quran.”

    If two witnesses were to describe a man they saw by stating that he had two eyes, one nose, two legs, two arms etc, we could be excused for thinking that they were perhaps both describing the same man. But if one of these witnesses then further described the man he had seen as being four feet tall whilst the other witness said that the man he had seen was seven feet tall, then we could only conclude that they both had seen a different person.

    Similarly we cannot just take some similarities between YHWH and Allah and on the basis of these simply conclude that they both are the same deity, we must also take into consideration the irreconcilable differences that exist between them

  18. @ Bola

    I think the comment you want me to address is the following:

    ” Even a superficial reading of the Torah will very quickly show that Allah is a different god from YHWH. In view of thirst is highly credible that the Jews said to Muhammad: Ishaq:269 “‘For our part we don’t see how your Qur’an recitals are arranged anything like our Torah is.’ ‘You know quite well that the Qur’an is from Allah. You will find it written in the Torah which you have.’”The Jews got it right, the Torah and the Quran were worlds apart. The Book in the possession of the Jews seriously contradicted and undermined the validity of the Quran. If YHWH is God then Allah cannot be.”

    Bola, I really don’t think the above is any issue needing to be addressed in the face of the facts we presented above.

    First, the undistorted translation of the report in the Seerah Ibn Ishaq 269 is:

    “For our part, we don’t see your Qur’an recitals arranged anything like our Torah is. The Prophet said: ‘You know quite well that the Qur’an is from Allah. You will find it written in the Torah which you have.’ ”

    Their only criticism was the Qur’an was not arranged like their Torah. The Prophet told them that the Qur’an was revealed by Allah, obviously meaning the same God that revealed the Torah. In the report, they did not object to the Prophet’s used of the Name ‘Allah’ (and Whom the Name referred to) as the God that revealed the Torah. This fact alone destroys the polemics heaped around this report.

    Secondly, the report in Ishaq 269 is not authentic, is false report, for lack of linking transmitters to the time of the Prophet. The report is “mursal”, with missing links of transmission. Therefore, it is as disingenuous to quote such a report against Islam as it is for anyone to quote any of the pseudophigraphical Christian writings against Christianity.

    Third, the fact that the Name Allah refers only to the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world does not depend on whether or not the Qur’an is a true revelation from God. Pre-Islamic Arab Jews and Christians were referring to the true God as Allah. Even after the revelation of the Qur’an to this very day, Arab Jews and Christians refer to the true God as Allah both in their Arabic translations of their scriptures, during their worships and in their day-to-day life activities. Since before the revelation of the Qur’an to this day, they have been referring to the true God they worshipped as Allah. They (Arab Jews and Christians) just wrongly believed that the Qur’an was not really from Allah.

    These facts exposed the above comment under discussion to be based on the wrong assumption that Allah was not recognized as the true God, the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world, outside of the Qur’an!! Archaeology, history and the pre-Islamic as well as post-Islamic Arabic translations of the scriptures of the Jews and Christians decisively belied such a bigoted assumption!

    The last sentence of the comment under discussion says: ‘If YHWH is God then Allah cannot be”.

    What the term ‘Allah’ refers to ever in history? The term ‘Allah’, since the pre-Islamic Arab Jews and Christians and all other pre-Islamic Arabs, only refers to the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world. And YHWH is obviously only a Hebrew term and the original users of the term (Hebrews) used it to refer to the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world. Thus the terms are just two terms of two languages for just the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world. Therefore, it is quite irrational and ridiculous for the commenter to say: If YHWH is God then Allah cannot be!! It is just like saying that if a Hebrew term refers to a thing and a similar term of another language refers to the same thing in that language, the non-Hebrew term cannot mean that very thing!! How tribalistic, irrational and bigoted!!

    The only way he can show that Allah refers to any other than the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world is to prove that the users of the term generally used it for any being other than Him ever in history! This he can never do as the evidences against it are overwhelmingly conclusive as presented above!!

    Therefore, it is just a wrong preconceived notion in the mind of the commenter which he closed himself from letting go whatever the evidences against it! Hence, the cherry pickings, weird interpretations, use of spurious reports, ignoring of archaeological and historical evidences and tribalistic and irrational notions!

  19. REG

    wrote
    You said “Pre-Islamic Arabs that recognized idols as some deities also used the Name Allah only for the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world.”

    Yet according to Quran 6:108:

    “And insult not those whom they worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall inform them of all that they used to do.”

    Again wrote;
    So why were the Arabs prepared to insult Allah if they believed that he was “the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world”?

    I corrected REG
    The Pagan Arabs never insulted Allah, because He is their God. They added other idols and Allah’s creations to Allah, just like how Christians added Jesus Christ who is God’s creation to God and worship them all and the is idolatry and or polytheism on both sides.

    Now, some Pagan Arabs and some Christians like REG insults what prophet Mohammed preaches and that is what the verse and the hadith is about. When you insults Moses and what he preaches, then you insult God. If you insults Abraham, Jesus, Isaac, Solomon, Noah etc. and what they preached, then you insult Allah.

    THE PAGAN ARABS NEVER INSULTED THE NAME ALLAH but will insult what prophet Mohammed preaches and since Allah commanded Prophet Mohammed to preach, the Allah consider those who reject and insults His message and messengers as insulting Him wrongfully.

  20. Reg,

    You wrote:
    ” Yet according to Quran 6:108:“And insult not those whom they worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall inform them of all that they used to do.”
    … So why were the Arabs prepared to insult Allah if they believed that he was“the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world”?”

    Response:
    As usual, you just severed this verse out of its context thus creating a false picture of what was meant. The context clearly shows that they viewed their idols as just mediators to Allah who was alone the Creator of the world:

    ” Had Allah so willed they would not have associated others with Him in His divinity; and We have not appointed you a watcher over them, and you are not their guardian”(Qur’an 6:107).

    This also proves that they recognized Allah but just wrongly tried to worship Him through idols which, according to Islam, is associating others with Him.

    Now, they were not rightly guided concerning Allah as the Muslims and thus their belief in Him and worship of Him were just misguided and skewed. The Muslims recognized Allah alone to be worshipped directly without the agency of idols and condemn all idols. This was not acceptable to them. And if Muslims would insult their idols, they could only respond by insulting Allah whom the Muslims recognized for worship only. They would do this not because they did not recognize Allah as the Creator but just out of misguided opposing rivalry termed as “Al adaww” by the verse under discussion:

    “Do not revile those whom they invoke other than Allah, because they will revile Allah in ignorance out of spite. For We have indeed made the deeds of every people seem fair to them. Then, their return is to their Lord and He will inform them of what they have done.”(Quran 6: 108).

    So, the verse itself clarifies that they would not insult Him but only out of misguided opposing rivalry against the Muslims that would insult their idols.

    The next verse clarifies further that they believed Allah to be the Creator and God of the world:

    ” They swear by Allah with their most solemn oaths that if a sign comes to them, they will certainly believe in it. Say: ‘Signs are in Allah’s power alone.”(Qur’an 6:109)

    Therefore, as usual, you isolate verses out of their contexts, cherry-pick from your sources to arrive at your skewed conclusions.

    To conclude this response on my next comment soon…

  21. Reg,

    As already pointed out, the contemporaneous Qur’an throughout unambiguously reveals that even the idolatrous Arabs recognized Allah alone as the INVISIBLE HEAVENLY CREATOR of the world:-

    They knew that Allah was Heavenly and Invisible:

    “And those who do not hope for Our meeting say: Why have not angels been sent down upon us, why do we not see our Lord? Now certainly they are too proud of themselves and have revolted in great revolt. On the day when they shall see the angels, there shall be no joy on that day for the guilty, and they shall say,”It is a forbidden thing totally prohibited”(Qur’an 25:21-22).

    Even the idolatrous Arabs knew Allah as the Sole Creator of all:-

    ”If you ask them, who created them? They will surely say: Allah” (Qur’an 43:87).

    “If you ask them, who is it that created the the heavens and the earth? They will surely say: Allah. Say (in reply): ‘Praise be to Allah’. But most of them understand not.”(Qur’an 31:25).

    “And if indeed thou ask them, Who it is that sends down rain from the sky, and gives life therewith to the earth after its death, they will certainly reply, “Allah!” Say, “Praise be to Allah!” But most of them understand not.”(Qur’an 29: 63).

    So as they recognized Allah as the sole Living Heavenly Creator and Sustainer of the world, why did they worship the idols, what were the position and the function of their many idols?

    The contemporaneous Qur’an says that when they were asked the same question is they responded:

    ”We only worship them so that they may bring us closer to Allah.”(Qur’an 39:3).

    “And they worshipped besides Allah that neither hurt them nor profit them, and they say:’these are our intercessors with Allah. Say (to them):”Do you inform Allah of that which He knows not in heavens or on earth? Glorified and exalted is He above that which they associate with Him in worship.”(Qur’an10:18).

    “What! Do they take for intercessors others besides Allah? Say: Even if they (the idols taken as intercessors) have no power whatever and no intelligence (I.e were not even aware of their being taken as intercessors let alone have the power to do so)?!”(Qur’an 39:43).

    There are numerous other verses conveying the same fact.

    It is notable that the Qur’an was contemporaneous with those Arabs and thus must have stated their actual beliefs concerning Allah else they would have protested and the Qur’an would never have been accepted by them at last as credible.

    Further, independent sources as archaeology shows that the pre-Islamic Arabs recognized Allah as the Creator and God.

    In order to maintain your wrong preconceived notions, you conveniently ignore all these and resort to the fallacy of cherry picking from your source of argument! You also isolate verses out of their contexts and inject your misinterpretations and reach disingenuous conclusions to foster your biased preconceived ideas!

  22. You insist without a shred of linguistic or historical evidence that the Name Allah was used as a common, generic, term.

    In one of your recent comments above, you said:

    “If Allah is used in Arabic translations of the Bible as a common noun how can it then be the equivalent of YHWH since the latter is NEVER used as a common noun?”

    The Arabic Proper Name of the Creator ‘Allah’ was used to translate terms that exclusively mean the true God only. The Arabic proper Name was used in place of the Hebrew proper name YHWH in the Arabic translations of the scriptures of the Jews since before Islam. Rick Brown, evangelical Christian Bible scholar, reveals:

    ” The standard Jewish Arabic translation of the Torah was translated by the Jewish scholar Saadia Gaon before 1000 AD and has been used by Middle Eastern Jews until the present time. It was also used by Christians until American missionaries widely distributed an Arabic version of the King James Bible in the late 19th century. There were other Jewish Arabic translations as well, notably the one made by the Karaites at the same time as Saadia. All of these Jewish translations use Allah as the name of God, using it to translate both Elohim and YHWH.” (International Journal of Frontier Mission, 2006-2007, page 80).

    And, it is well-known to all that know the Arabic language that the generic term for any god is “ilah” (for one god or deity), “ilahain”(for two gods or deities) and “alihah” (for more than two deities). This term, being generic, is used in generic sense for any god or deity. But the Name Allah is never used of any idol or deity other than the Invisible Heavenly Creator alone. Bible scholar Rick Brown reveals:

    “For there is no inscription that identifies Allah as a moon god or as a pagan deity. This contrasts with the Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and English words for God, all of which descend from words that were commonly used by pagans in reference to pagan deities. So the name Allah is freer of pagan roots than are these other names!” (International Journal of Frontier Mission, 2006-2007, page 81, Rick Brown).

    Being used only for the One and Only Being, the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world, the Name Allah proves to be Arabic Personal – Proper – Name (Arabic: Ism Al-that) and thus clearly never a generic – common – name used for any other deity or god.

    Even the pre-Islamic Arabs used it always consistently for the Heavenly Creator of the world.

    Note well that it is the linguistic evidence and the general usage by original users of the language that determine whether a term is generic or proper, not by polemical use of a term by specific people of a language group.

    Therefore, even if some translators were to use the proper Name Allah as generic for polemical reason, this would never make the Proper Name generic. And the fact presented above from reliable academic source is that the Jewish translators translated the Name YHWH as Allah in well-known Arabic translations of their scriptures.

    You still seem to labour under the misconception that different conceptions of God by different people mean that they had different gods. Muslims and Jews never conceived God as tri-personal or that God has a literal son. But this did never mean that Muslims and Jews mean a different god than the Trinitarian Christians. Brother The Truth puts it beautifully above:

    “If we see the same man wearing a shirt and you see the shirt as red based on your colour perception and I see the shirt white, that does not mean we saw different men. It is the same man but the problem is with the one with a wrong color perception. He must see an ophthalmologist for treatment.”

    You also wrongly thought that since Arab Christians conceive Jesus as Allah then they use the Name Allah as a generic term. No, because they conceive Jesus -The Son- as YHWH. Christians regard each of the three people (Father, Son and Spirit) as fully god yet they convince only themselves that they have only one fully God! They conceive that each of the people making the trinity is YHWH and yet they have only one YHWH! They believe that all the three people making the trinity (Father, Son and Ghost) make only one Being and thus one God and One YHWH!! This, when Arab Christians referred to Jesus as Allah this does not mean that a different god from the One God is referred to as Allah. Thus, this use does not signify their use of the Name as generic. And even if they were to use it as generic, this will never be linguistically but only polemically and thus will never reflect against the linguistic position of the Name as Proper.

    It is noticeable since the beginning of the discussion that you argue based on ASSUMPTIONS only, quite wrong assumptions, You assumed that Allah was only a Meccan deity which only the Prophet “reinvent” as the true God without partners. Facts proved this assumption wrong. You then argued based on pure assumption that Allah is a generic term which also proved quite untenable.

    Evidences from contemporary Islamic source (Qur’an), archaeological and historical evidences as well as linguistical – all proved that Allah is an Arabic Proper Name for the Invisible Creator of the world ever in history. However much you detest this fact and wish otherwise, no amount of polemics can change this established fact.

    Rick Brown, Christian evangelical Bible scholar, says:

    “The meanings of a word are a matter of social convention. If Muslims use the term Allah to refer to the one and only God, the creator of the universe, the sustainer of all life, the bestower of all blessings, the sender of all prophets and Scripture, then that is what the term means for them, and not a moon god. Allah is God.”(International Journal of Frontier Mission, 2006, page 81).

    Therefore, whenever you people insulted Allah as a false god, you only insult the invisible Heavenly Creator of the world as this is only what the Arabic term Allah refers to.

    Thanks.

  23. You said “Now, if the Christians believe the creator of everything is himself one of his creations i.e. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, then that is their prerogative and that is their problem not me Sir REG.”

    It is simply NOT true that “Christians believe the creator of everything is himself one of his creations i.e. Jesus Christ of Nazareth…”

    You said “What is wrong with Prophet Mohammed preaching to idol worshipers to stop their practice and worship the only one true God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.?”

    There is nothing wrong with preaching as long as we are peaceful and do not insult other people’s beliefs or smash their objects of worship.

    You said: “Mr. REG, if Jesus Christ is God, what prevented him from telling the truth that he is in fact God Almighty and he Jesus must be worshiped?”

    If Jesus believed that the Torah existing in the first century was corrupt then what prevented him from telling THIS truth and warning that it should be rejected?

  24. You said: “Pre-Islamic Arabs that recognized idols as some deities also used the Name Allah only for the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world. They recognized Allah alone as the Creator God and that they had idols only as intercessors.”

    Quran 21:36. When the Unbelievers see thee, they treat thee not except with ridicule. “Is this,” (they say), “the one who talks of your gods?” and they blaspheme at the mention of ((Allah)) Most Gracious!

    (And when those who disbelieved see you,) meaning, the disbelievers of the Quraysh, such as Abu Jahl and his like. (they take you not except for mockery) means, they make fun of you and insult you, saying (“Is this the one who talks about your gods”) meaning, is this the one who insults your gods and ridicules your intelligence Allah says: (While they disbelieve at the mention of the Most Gracious.) meaning, they disbelieve in Allah and yet they mock the Messenger of Allah . (Tafsir ibn Kathir)

    Why are the Arabs, who we are told, HAD INTERCESSORS TO GET NEARER TO ALLAH, then disbelieving and blaspheming Allah, whom they supposedly believed to be “the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world”??? Does this make any sense?

  25. Reg,

    You quoted:

    ” Quran 21:36. When the Unbelievers see thee, they treat thee not except with ridicule. “Is this,” (they say), “the one who talks of your gods?” and they blaspheme at the mention of ((Allah)) Most Gracious!

    And then you commented:

    “Why are the Arabs, who we are told, HAD INTERCESSORS TO GET NEARER TO ALLAH, then disbelieving and blaspheming Allah, whom they supposedly believed to be “the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world”??? Does this make any sense?”

    Response:

    This demonstrates once again that you never objectively study the Qur’an. It shows that you just pick up your arguments from anti-Islamic sources that are highly subjective, biased, and thus never represent what Islam actually teaches.

    Now, the Qur’anic passage you referred to does NOT show that the pre-Islamic Arabs insulted Allah! It just shows that the insulted an attributive name (At-Rahman = The Merciful) given to Allah by Islam. This attributive name was not common among them as a title for Allah. As I pointed out above, the pre-Islamic Arabs that take idols as intercessors with Allah (whom they believed to be the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world) were not rightly guided concerning how they worshipped the Creator. The Qur’an says of them:

    وَمَا قَدَرُواْ اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِه

    “They measured not Allah with His true measure…”(Qur’an 6:91, Arberry).

    Thus, they wrongly thought that Allah could not be given attributive name like Ar-Rahman (The Merciful). Thus, when the Prophet called the Creator attribitively as Ar-Rahman, they rejected the attributive name because they were not used to it! They just blasphemed” the mention of Ar-Rahman” not Allah (as they thought that Allah could not be titled as Ar-Rahman)!

    The Qur’an records their reaction at other places at the mention of the title Ar-Rahman:

    وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمُ اسْجُدُوا لِلرَّحْمَٰنِ قَالُوا وَمَا الرَّحْمَٰنُأَنَسْجُدُ لِمَا تَأْمُرُنَا وَزَادَهُمْ نُفُورًا ۩

    “And when it is said to them, “Prostrate to the Most Merciful,” they say, “And what is the Most Merciful? Should we prostrate to that which you order us?” And it increases them in aversion.” (Qur’an 25:60).

    Now, the verse you isolated could be understood in context:

    36وَإِذَا رَآكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِنْ يَتَّخِذُونَكَ إِلَّا هُزُوًا أَهَٰذَا الَّذِي يَذْكُرُ آلِهَتَكُمْ وَهُمْ بِذِكْرِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ هُمْ
    كَافِرُوi

    “And when those who disbelieve see you,(O Muhammad), they take you not except in ridicule, (saying:) “Is this the one who insults your gods?” And they are, at the mention of The Most Merciful (Ar-Rahman) disbelievers.”(Qur’an 21:36).

    Therefore, they did not blaspheme the mention of Allah ( Whom they regarded as alone the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world) but just the mention of a title they didn’t recognize as a title for Allah (I.e Ar-Rahman or The Merciful).

    With every additional comment, you demonstrate what I pointed out about you: You only argue based on ASSUMPTIONS only, by isolating verses out of contexts, by cherry picking your source of argument, by ignoring a mountain of evidences against your assumptions and by injecting your preconceived notions in the verses you isolated to foster your biased conclusion.

    To reiterate, you can only show that the Arabic Proper Name Allah does not refer to the Invisible Heavenly Creator alone by showing any group of Arabs ever in history used the term for any other than Him alone. Clearly, all evidence are not on your side concerning this!

    Rick Brown, Christian evangelical Bible scholar, says:

    “The meanings of a word are a matter of social convention. If Muslims use the term Allah to refer to the one and only God, the creator of the universe, the sustainer of all life, the bestower of all blessings, the sender of all prophets and Scripture, then that is what the term means for them, and not a moon god. Allah is God.”(International Journal of Frontier Mission, 2006, page 81).

    “And if a Christian tells a Muslim that he is worshipping the moon rather than the creator of the universe, then the Christian will be viewed as a liar and a blasphemer, and his testimony will have no credibility at all, because the Muslims know that it is God whom they fear and whom they seek to please.”(International Journal of Frontier Mission, 2006-2007, page 82).

    Thanks.

  26. REG

    Wrote
    If two witnesses were to describe a man they saw by stating that he had two eyes, one nose, two legs, two arms etc, we could be excused for thinking that they were perhaps both describing the same man. But if one of these witnesses then further described the man he had seen as being four feet tall whilst the other witness said that the man he had seen was seven feet tall, then we could only conclude that they both had seen a different person.

    Similarly we cannot just take some similarities between YHWH and Allah and on the basis of these simply conclude that they both are the same deity, we must also take into consideration the irreconcilable differences that exist between them

    I corrected REG

    Compare the Torah and the Quran

    Once again here is my proof and evidence.

    BIBLE:
    .”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20

    QURAN:
    47:19 – You shall know that: “There is no other god beside ALLAH”,

    And your Allah is One Allah: There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    Proof

    Evidence:

    1.”since indeed God is one [hen]” Romans 3:30
    2.”to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
    3.”there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
    1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
    9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
    7.”Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God” 1 Timothy 1:17

    1.Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
    2.Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
    3.He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
    4.And there is none like unto Him.

    A kindergarten kid will not find it difficult to realize that both scriptures are talking about the same God of Abraham by identifying the key words of ONLY, ALONE, ONE GOD OF ABRAHAM.

    If this is not a proof to you then I do not know what you expect. 3 Persons(beings) in One being?

    There is nothing like 3 beings in 1 being in the whole Bible, so your God is just like 4 feet and seven feet tall analogy you gave us. But our God is just like EYES, NOSE, EARS analogy you gave us if you consider the verses above from the Quran and the Bible.

    Mr. REG, I have no intention of disrespecting you even though, you and your Jews counterparts disrespected Jesus Christ by saying the God he called on the cross as Elahi, that is Elah and I, Allaha, Elaha, which Arabic the sister language in semetic has it the same as Allah which both Jews and Christians and even Pagan Arabs understand as the creator of everything, you REG and your own JEWS say is not God.

    REG wrote

    Why are the Arabs, who we are told, HAD INTERCESSORS TO GET NEARER TO ALLAH, then disbelieving and blaspheming Allah, whom they supposedly believed to be “the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world”??? Does this make any sense?

    I corrected REG
    A kindergarten kid by reading this will not find it difficult to identify the problem with the Arabs was HAD INTERCESSORS TO GET NEARER TO ALLAH as you rightly capitalized it for clarity.

    They are just like Christians who believed in the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world but had Jesus as the Son or a second being(Person) of God as intercessor to get nearer to God.

    The problem with the Pagan Arabs is not they do not believe in Allah, the do but the problem is just like Christians by adding other things to God.

    Most idol worshipers today will acknowledge that, yes they believe in One God who is the creator of everything but they also believe adding other lesser beings(Persons), objects, cows, snakes, trees etc. will make things easier for them and the One God.

    That is what Allah is saying adding anything besides only One God(Allah, Yahweh, Theo, Elah, Allaha etc.) is an insult to God and is blaspheme.

    Even thought the verse is directed to the Arabs but it is applicable to a whole lot of people including Christians and some idol worshipers.

    Thanks

  27. REG

    Wrote;
    If Jesus believed that the Torah existing in the first century was corrupt then what prevented him from telling THIS truth and warning that it should be rejected?

    I corrected REG
    Jesus as a prophet knew the final revelation will come to correct the earlier ones that is why he said he could tell all is required of him but some one will come to make all the corrections. Muslims say it is the holy Quran and Christians say it is the holy Spirit. At least the is acknowledgement from him that some thing has to come and correct mankind.

    With regards to being God. It would be too bad for God not to say He is God. It contradicts the true God of the Torah who keeps saying He is God everywhere in the scripture.

    Thanks

  28. You said: “The Arabic Proper Name of the Creator ‘Allah’ was used to translate terms that exclusively mean the true God only. The Arabic proper Name was used in place of the Hebrew proper name YHWH in the Arabic translations of the scriptures of the Jews since before Islam.”

    I can’t recall seeing any evidence from you for PRE-Islamic Arabic translations of the Jewish scriptures.

    Since Jews have traditionally recognised only one name for deity the only way of knowing whether the word replacing YHWH was considered by the Jewish translator to be its equivalent was if he were to explicitly state this. We know YHWH was rendered by words in other languages but which were not recognised by the Jewish translators as the equivalent of YHWH. For example YHWH has been rendered in an English translation as “God” but this word is not recognised by the translator as the English equivalent of YHWH. This shows that any word by which YHWH is rendered in another language does not necessarily mean that it is recognised as its equivalent.

    In the same way Allah has also been rendered into an English translation by the word “God” but this word was probably not recognised as being the English equivalent of Allah. So we need more evidence than just a translation to prove that the word and its replacement were considered to be equivalent by the translator. For example if I could show that there was a consensus of Muslim scholars who held that “God” is the English equivalent of “Allah” then that would carry much more weight in proving this point than merely pointing to a translation.

    The fact that you are having to rely on translations to “prove” that Allah is the equivalent of YHWH shows how desperate your position is. You have so far offered no evidence to show that the translator/s you mentioned (whose views may not necessarily represent the views of the whole of Jewry) explicitly stated that they considered YHWH and Allah to be equivalent. This is crucial because the Jewish Bible recognises no name for deity other than YHWH and I know of no translation of the Torah where the word rendered in place of YHWH was recognised by the translator to be its equivalent.

    You need to show either from the Jewish scriptures that Allah is a legitimate name for YHWH or cite credible evidence from recognised Jewish scholars to show that they consider Allah to be the Arabic proper name for YHWH.

    And do not even your own sources say that both “elohim” and “YHWH” were rendered as Allah. Should we then conclude that the translators considered Allah to be the equivalent of elohim? Would this not then make “Allah” a common noun? How would “Allah” then be the equivalent of YHWH?

  29. You said: “And if Muslims would insult their idols, they could only respond by insulting Allah whom the Muslims recognized for worship only. They would do this not because they did not recognize Allah as the Creator but just out of misguided opposing rivalry termed as “Al adaww” by the verse under discussion:”

    What you are saying does not make any sense. How can the Arabs respond to insults against their idols, whom they only worshipped to get nearer to Allah, BY INSULTING ALLAH HIMSELF???

  30. REG

    Wrote
    You said: “And if Muslims would insult their idols, they could only respond by insulting Allah whom the Muslims recognized for worship only. They would do this not because they did not recognize Allah as the Creator but just out of misguided opposing rivalry termed as “Al adaww” by the verse under discussion:”

    What you are saying does not make any sense. How can the Arabs respond to insults against their idols, whom they only worshipped to get nearer to Allah, BY INSULTING ALLAH HIMSELF???

    I Correct him

    The Arab Pagans will insult Prophet Mohammeds Allah, but not their Allah. They always say your Allah ya Mohammed. They never say Allah alone when insulting Mohammed. THE ALWAYS SAY MOHAMMED YOUR ALLAH which means they believe in Allah.

    Because Mohammed is the prophet of God, when anyone insults his ALLAH, he has insulted Allah.

    When president Obama was elected as the President of the whole USA, some white supremacists out of anger of seeing a black president insulted Obama as a black president i.e. insulting US PRESIDENT OBAMA because of blacks.

    It does not mean that these white racists do not believe in the constitution of the USA and that a sworn PRESIDENT who won an election is not a president. They are doing it out of anger and calling OBAMA black president. Their behaviour does not disqualify Obama as a president. And the white racist of America believe USA has a president who is called Obama anyway but they insult him out of anger does not prove they did not believe in the existence of the president of America. They insult him in the context of black president.

    It is just like me saying because Christian worship Jesus as God, so their God is not God, that does not mean I do not believe in God. It is only a kindergarten kid who would think by me insulting Christian Allah, God or Yahweh is meant to be that I do not believe in God.

    By the Pagan Arabs insulting Mohammeds Allah or God does not mean they do not believe in Allah. That thinking is childish. ONCE AGAIN IF BECAUSE OF JESUS I INSULT CHRISTIAN GOD, DOES NOT MEAN I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD?

    YOU REG IS INSULTING OUR GOD, INSULTING JESUS CHRISTS GOD ALLAHA, DOES THAT MEAN YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD?

    INSULTING SOMEONES GOD DOES NOT MEAN YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD YOUR SELF. YOU ARE ONLY DIFFERENCIATING THE PERSEPTION ON HOW YOU SEE GOD.

    THE PAGAN ARABS BELIEVE IN ALLAH AS THEIR GOD BUT INSULTING PROPHET MOHAMMEDS GOD AS YOU REG AND YOUR JEWS ARE INSULTING OUR GOD AND JESUS GOD HERE EVERYDAY. IT DOES NOT MEAN YOU DO NOT BELEIVE IN GOD YOURSEL.

    THE ARAB PAGANS ARE DIFFERENCIATING THE PERSEPTION ON HOW THEY AND THE PROPHET SEE GOD. SO MANY IDOL WORSHIPERS TODAY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD, JUST LIKE CHRISTIANITY, THEY BELIEVE AN INTERCESSOR GOD IN THE FORM OF A MAN, ANIMAL OR ANY OBJECT WILL MAKE THEIR MATTERS SIMPLE.

    That is what Allah send his last messenger prophet Mohammed to preach and correct.

    Thanks

  31. REG

    THE PAGAN ARABS DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE GOD(ALLAH, YAHWEH, THEOS etc.) WHO SENT MOHAMMED BUT BELIEVE IN THEIR OWN(ALLAH, YAHWEH, THEOS etc.) DOES NOT MEAN WHEN THEY INSULTS MOHAMMEDS ALLAH THEY MEAN ALLAH LIKE YOU REG INSULTING JESUS CHRISTS GOD ALLAHA, YOU DO NOT MEAN YOUR GOD IS JESUS CHRISTS GOD. ACTUALLY THEY ALWAYS SAY YOUR ALLAH YA MOHAMMED. READ HISTORY AND WATCH MOVIES ABOUT THE ARABS AND THE PAGAN ARABS.

    THE PAGAN ARABS NEVER INSULTS ALLAH BUT WILL INSULT MOHAMMEDS ALLAH WHEN THEY ARE ANGRY.

    REG

    Wrote
    You need to show either from the Jewish scriptures that Allah is a legitimate name for YHWH or cite credible evidence from recognised Jewish scholars to show that they consider Allah to be the Arabic proper name for YHWH.

    I corrected REG
    No body can just translate a book from one language to another especially a scripture except he is a scholar with a lot of research. The Jews translated YHWH to Allah in the Jewish Arabic scriptures and the Yemeni Jews, Moroccan Jews, Iranian Jews, Iraqi Jews, Palestinian Jews, Turkish Jews and many more jews knew and call the creator of every thing as Allah just like Jesus in his mother language calls his God Elaha, Allaha, Elah which got the Arabic Allah derived from it and this name was from centuries before Islam till today the 7th of may 2015 and will continue to be the name of One creator of everything who is alone and only as the Bible said.

    If Allah is not equivalent, why not leave the name YHWH in place of Allah? The Jews and the Christians could have protested and allow the YHWH to stay in their Bible instead of Allah. They did not but instead allow Allah to in their Bible for centuries before and after Islam till today. Who are you REG to have knowledge in the name of their God than them?

    Do you mean to tell me that, the Arab Jews in Morocco, Palestine, Iraq, Iran etc. before and after Islam have no sense like you and have no scholars reading their scriptures to make the corrections you are yearning for? Do you know their God more than them? Do you know their languages more than them? for all these centuries? Are there not scholars among them? to quickly disallow Allah in their Bibles or make simple changes to the name YHWH?

    Thanks

  32. The Gospel of Mark quotes Jesus as using the Aramaic “ELOI” for My God. Matthew however quotes Jesus as using the Hebrew “ELI” for My God :

    45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)
    .
    47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”
    Matthew 27:45-47

    In Matthew’s version of this story we see that the bystanders did not think “what is this new and strange name i.e. “Eloi” or “ELI” that Jesus is calling YHWH”? In fact they did not think that Jesus was calling upon god at all. They thought he was calling Elijah the prophet!

    In fact the confusion of the bystanders could make Matthew’s Hebrew version more credible than Mark’s Aramaic because it appears more likely that the bystanders confused “ELI” with Elijah than with “ELOI”.

    The Jewish Bible never recognises either ELOI, EL, ELAH, ELOHIM, ELOAH, ILLAHI, ALLAH, ALLAHI or any other noun as a proper name for YHWH. So how did Jesus who was a Jew and who believed in the Jewish scriptures come to recognise any of these terms as a name for deity? And if he did then why in the Gospels do we never find the Jews charging him with blasphemy over this issue.

    Although there are many names for god in Islam Jesus being a first century Jew would have recognised only one proper name for deity – YHWH. Unlike “Allah” in the Quran, YHWH the Jewish name for deity cannot be replaced by “Rahman” or any other name. YHWH for Jesus was a unique name that was not only irreplaceable but eternal (Exodus 3:15).

    The Aramaic Eloi and Elah can also be used in reference to false deities so neither Jesus nor his fellow Jews would have considered them to be the proper names of their god.

    According to the Gospels Jesus like other Jews often worshipped at the Temple of YHWH in Jerusalem. Since he knew that the Torah gave only one proper name for deity – YHWH, he would have rejected any other noun including Allah as a proper name for his god. If Jesus had taught, contrary to what the Torah teaches that there was another proper name for his god in addition to YHWH then it is not credible that he would have lasted five minutes in the Temple.

  33. If Jesus accepted the Torah existing in the first century as divine scripture then he would have rejected the Quran as a false revelation. Two books ‘revealed’ by the same deity cannot be contradictory to the point of being opposites.

  34. REG

    Wrote
    According to the Gospels Jesus like other Jews often worshipped at the Temple of YHWH in Jerusalem. Since he knew that the Torah gave only one proper name for deity – YHWH, he would have rejected any other noun including Allah as a proper name for his god. If Jesus had taught, contrary to what the Torah teaches that there was another proper name for his god in addition to YHWH then it is not credible that he would have lasted five minutes in the Temple.

    I corrected REG
    Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Hebrew. He cried on the cross in his mother tongue which is Aramaic and according to so many researches and historical facts Allaha in Aramaic means God the creator of everything and Arabic as the name is even close to Aramaic, is a sister semetic language of Hebrew and Aramaic that derived Allah from Allaha of Jesus Christ which is basically the same God the creator of everything. So Jesus of all people called his God Allaha i.e. Allah on the cross but not Yahweh or Eli or Eloi. In fact, there is nothing like Eloi in any language I know. Eloi is false and fabrication by the gospel writers, like how they falsify the ending of mark with the biting snakes verses and later removed from the Bible, because it was false and unreliable. There are so many added and deleted verses like the Trinity formula in the gospels which makes the gospels full of lies, distortions and untruths as a matter of fact, so it is not reliable and cannot be accepted to tell us who God is and what Jesus said.

    THERE IS NO ELOI IN ANY LANGUAGE, hence the disagreement between Mathew and Mark with regards to what Prophet Jesus really said.

    For sure Jesus did not call his God Yahweh but called God in his mother tongue which is Aramaic and it is Allaha i.e. Allah.

    If you REG and your Jew counterparts will continue to insult the God of Jesus Christ, then that is your prerogative and hell awaits anyone who insults Jesus Christ’s God.

    Elaha, Elah is also a name of God in Aramaic or Syriac.

    Some reference and a research for you: Just enter the word God and it will be translated as Allah for you in Aramaic.

    http://www.peshitta.org/cgi-bin/lexicon.cgi

    Why do Christians want to hide the fact that the creator of everything in Aramaic, the language of Jesus Christ is Allaha i.e. Allah. It is irrefutable fact, that Allaha or Allah is the name of the creator of everything from before and after Islam.

    Mr. REG read the link below which contains the research of what we have been saying here over a month to see whether you can have some sense that in fact Allah is the creator of everything and accepted by those languages that uses it be it Christian, Muslim, Jew, Sikh, Bahai, etc. and it is used before Islam and after Islam.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

    REG wrote

    The Aramaic Eloi and Elah can also be used in reference to false deities so neither Jesus nor his fellow Jews would have considered them to be the proper names of their god.

    I correct REG
    YHWH can also be used in reference to false deities. So what you said does not make sense here. What prevented YHWH from being used as false deity? Christian says Jesus who is a man and a created being and an object is this world is Yahweh i.e. the creator of everything. The Jews told the Christians that Jesus is not the Yahweh who is the creator of everything.

    Thanks

  35. Reg,

    You wrote:

    “Since Jews have traditionally recognised only one name for deity the only way of knowing whether the word replacing YHWH was considered by the Jewish translator to be its equivalent was if he were to explicitly state this. We know YHWH was rendered by words in other languages but which were not recognised by the Jewish translators as the equivalent of YHWH. For example YHWH has been rendered in an English translation as “God” but this word is not recognised by the translator as the English equivalent of YHWH. This shows that any word by which YHWH is rendered in another language does not necessarily mean that it is recognised as its equivalent.”

    Response:

    I have already addressed this in detail above which you completely ignore and just continue with your assumptions!

    I explain for umpteen times that according to linguistic evidence and general usage by the users of Arabic language ever, the Name Allah is evidently an Arabic Proper Name of the Heavenly Creator. Thus, some few translators’ polemical manipulations could not render the Proper Name generic. You ignored this to continue with your assumptions!

    The Jews translators translated YHWH as Allah in their translations. YHWH is a Hebrew Proper Name of the Creator. Allah is an Arabic Proper Name of the Creator. Thus, the Hebrew Name YHWH is equivalent to the Arabic Name Allah IN THAT BOTH ARE EQUIVALENTLY PROPER NOUNS. You need not any translator to tell you this obvious fact! Therefore, by replacing the Hebrew proper name YHWH with the Arabic proper name Allah in the translations, the translators showed that the Arabic Proper Name of the Creator can stand the place of the Hebrew proper name.

    You wrongly compare Arabic language with some languages that don’t have proper names for the Creator. This is comparing apples and oranges. You should note that if a language has no equivalent proper name for the Creator, the appropriate term for the Creator is used to translate both the generic terms and the proper name of the Creator. You should have given examples of languages that have proper names for the Creator – and they are many – and show that the translators refused to translate YHWH to the proper name of each of these languages. Note that some translations in English which has no proper name for God retains the Name YHWH everywhere ( e.g God’s Names Translation). And the translators that translated the HEBREW Scriptures into Greek (The Septuagint) also retains the tetragammaton in many of the copies of the translation, as I already showed above. This was all because these two languages don’t have proper names for the Creator. But in all Arabic translations, the Arabic Proper Name of the Creator Allah replaces the Hebrew proper name YHWH!! Thus continuing to cite English and Greek and such others that don’t have proper names for God for your argument just shows your further desperation. And when the translators used Allah for Elohim it is only when Elohim refers to the Creator alone. In this instance, they are using a more specific term in Arabic to bring about what is meant more clearly in Arabic – it is such an instance when the Arabic generic term “ilah” would be too vague to be used for the generic Elohim that refers specifically to the Creator alone.

    Now, the generic Hebrew terms El, Elohim etc are used not only for God Almighty but for various creatures in the Bible. Just show where the translators any of these generic terms used for any other than God as Allah in the Arabic translations, and only then that you will show that the translators used Allah as a generic term. Failure to do this completely destroys your assumptions!

    To reiterate, depending on translations that are polemical to assume that the Name Allah is generic not Proper shows your desperation! The Arabic language shows that Allah is Ismul Dhat or Personal Name that has never on history been used of any other than the Creator alone proves conclusively that Allah is a Proper Name per excellence! So, please save us from your further baseless assumptions on this!

  36. Reg,

    You wrote:

    “According to the Gospels Jesus like other Jews often worshipped at the Temple of YHWH in Jerusalem. Since he knew that the Torah gave only one proper name for deity – YHWH, he would have rejected any other noun including Allah as a proper name for his god.”

    Response:

    This is your oft-repeated argument well addressed above. You continually ignore all response to your arguments. This is irrational!

    Let me reiterate that the HEBREW Scriptures give only one proper name for God for the only reason that there is only one proper name of God in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew scriptures were written exclusively for the HEBREWS and in Hebrew language. In such a context, how can a rational person expect any other name for God in these scriptures other than YHWH the Hebrew term? So, when this so-called Torah says that YHWH should be the Proper Name of God forever, it is referring only to the Hebrew people so addressed. Therefore, ignoring this context to argue that all other proper names of the Creator in all other languages should not be used to refer to the Universal God in their respective languages that were created directly by the same God is highly irrational, tribalistic and wrong!

    You should note well that this argument of yours is also highly flawed on the angle of the fact that it is solely based on the logical fallacy of circular reasoning! You just assumed that the Torah of the Bible is the Torah authored by the inspired Prophet Moses and then based your argument on it as an authority.

    More on this in my next comment soon…

  37. Reg,

    You based your argument on the four-consonants YHWH on the assumption that the Torah of the Bible was authored by Prophet Moses. This is quite a circular argument!

    First, most Bible scholars throughout the world do not hold to the relatively late and invalid tradition of the mosaic authorship of the Torah of the Bible for many internal and external evidences.

    First, nowhere in this Torah the actual writer/writers even claim that he himself was Moses. From the beginning to the end of this Torah, Moses is treated as a distant past figure by unknown writer/writers. Even the speeches alleged to be by Moses are introduced by the actual author!

    In the last chapter of this Torah, the actual author narrates the death of Moses and what allegedly took place after as long past events:

    “So Moses the servant of YAHWEH died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of YAHWEH, and (God) buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Bethpeor; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day.”(Deuteronomy Chapter 34 verse 5).

    This Torah says that no prophet arose in Israel like Moses since after Moses:

    “And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom YAHWEH knew face to face.”(Deuteronomy Chapter 34 verse 10).

    Relatively late speculalatory tradition claims that Joshua (or someone else) added this obituary passage in this Torah. But scholars generally dismiss this for its relatively lateness and for the fact that the style of the last chapter is exactly the same with the rest of the book.

    And a chapter back, the actual author looked back the death of Moses as a past event :

    “And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.”(Deuteronomy Chapter 33 verse 1)

    The author here says that Moses blessed the children of Israel before he (Moses) died!

    There are lot and lot of mentioning of events that occurred long after Moses as past history in this Torah. Few examples:

    “Beyond the Jordan, in the land of Moab, Moses undertook to explain this law.”(Dueteronomy Chapter 1 verse 5).

    Moses never crossed the Jordan with the Israelites. The conquest of Canaan occurred long after him. So, it is anachronistic to claim that Moses explained the Law across the Jordan.

    The Torah of the Bible mentioned the conquest of Canaan as long past event which did not occur but long after Moses:

    “The Horims also dwelt in Seir beforetime; but the children of Esau succeeded them, when they had destroyed them from before them, and dwelt in their stead; As Israel did unto the land of his possession, which YAHWEH gave unto them”(Deuteronomy Chapter 2 verse 12).

    The Torah of the Bible mentioned Edomite kings as past history which came to be long after the conquest:

    “And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel.”(Genesis Chapter 36 verse 31).

    The Torah in question mentions the existence of ‘House of YHWH’ that the first fruits of the land were brought into:

    “The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of YAHWEH thy God.”(Exodus Chapter 23 verse 19).

    But, no ‘house’ or temple, existed until after the time of King Solomon.

    “I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.”(2 Samuel Chapter 7 verse 6).

    In short, there are many , many such evidences that proved that this Torah was not authored by Prophet Moses.

    Now, not knowing this fact by the New Testament Jesus to have attributed this Torah to Moses’ authorship is a tragedy to the Jesus of the New Testament, it shows that the Jesus of the New Testament is largely fictitious or false Messiah!!

    Now, the point is that you committed the logical fallacy of circular reasoning by just assuming the Torah to be the work of Prophet Moses and just proceeded to base your argument from it as if it is reliable !!

    I avoided this fallacy as I did not base my argument by just assuming the Qur’an to be authoritative. I only used the Qur’an here as a contemporaneous document that states the belief of the contemporary Arab Jews, Christians, henotheists Arabs and idolatrous Arabs to their own faces. Had it lied to them concerning what they believed about Allah, they would have protested then and there and it would have brought speedy end of Islam then and there!

  38. Reg,

    For the fact that Prophet Moses was not the author of this Torah, we find errors in this Torah even concerning the name/ letters YHWH.

    The unknown writer of the book of Exodus writes that God made himself known by his Hebrew name YHWH to Moses only and that he did not make himself known by his Name YHWH to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – that he was known to them only as El Shaddai (God Almighty):

    ” 2 Elohim spoke to Moses, “I am Yahweh.3 I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as El Shadday, but I didn’t make myself known to them by my name,Yahweh.” (Exodus 6: 2-3, Names of God Bible).

    However, the anonymous writer of the book of Genesis writes that Abraham, Isaac, and and the people of the time long before Moses all knew God as YHWH and called him by that name:

    Abraham:-

    ” 5 He took Abram outside and said, “Now look up at the sky and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” He also said to him, “That’s how many descendants you will have!”6 Then Abram believed Yahweh, and that faith was regarded as the basis of Abram’s approval by Yahweh.7 Then Yahweh said to him, “I am Yahweh, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land so that you will take possession of it.”8 Abram asked, “Adonay Yahweh, how can I be certain that I will take possession of it?”(Genesis 15:5-8, Names of God Bible).

    So, Abraham not only knew God as YHWH, even called God by this Name!

    Isaac:-

    ” 2 Yahweh appeared to Isaac and said, “Don’t go to Egypt. Stay where I tell you. “(Genesis 26:2, Names of God Bible).

    Jacob:-

    “24 That night Yahweh appeared to Isaac, and said, “I am the Elohim of your father Abraham. Don’t be afraid, because I am with you. I will bless you and increase the number of your descendants for my servant Abraham’s sake.”(Genesis 26: 24, Names of God Bible).

    ” 13 Yahweh was standing there beside him, [a] saying,“I am Yahweh,the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your offspring the land that you are now sleeping on.”(Genesis 28:13, Holman Christian Standard Bible).

    Common People Before Moses:-

    “ There was also born a son to Seth, and he named him Enosh. Then men began to call on Yahweh’s name.” (Genesis 4: 26, World English Bible).

    “A son was born to Seth also, and he named him Enosh. At that time people began to call on the name of Yahweh.”(Genesis 4: 26, Holman Christian Standard Bible).

    Therefore, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew God as YHWH, He revealed Himself to them in His very Name YHWH, and they even called Him by this Name! More, even the common people then were calling God by that very Name! So, the Name YHWH was commonly known – He appeared to people by that name – and Abraham and the patriarchs as well as common people then COMMONLY used to refer to God long before Moses in His very Name YHWH!

    This fact proves the passage of the Exodus that you based your whole argument upon be highly unreliable besides being in a book that is also highly unreliable!!

  39. You said:

    “I corrected REG
    Jesus as a prophet knew the final revelation will come to correct the earlier ones that is why he said he could tell all is required of him but some one will come to make all the corrections. Muslims say it is the holy Quran and Christians say it is the holy Spirit. At least the is acknowledgement from him that some thing has to come and correct mankind.”

    Can you then cite a single independent New Testament scholar who believes that Jesus said that another prophet will come after him with another revelation to correct the corrupt Torah existing in the first century?

    Most New Testament scholars fall into two categories: Christian amd Independent.

  40. Reg,

    I pointed out severally that the word YHWH is now defective for lack of definite vowels to make its pronunciation certain and to make its meaning certain.

    Jews for quite long dropped pronouncing the Name due to a superstition they developed traditionally about pronouncing the name, as discussed already. This tradition has now corrupted the Name of its actual pronunciation and meaning and thus renders the name defective. The Hebrew scriptures were written without vowels and the Jews unfortunately dropped pronouncing the name to derive the definite vowels to use to accurately pronounce the name!

    Many attempts have been made academically to supply vowels to the consonants but all the attempts have been speculatory for the irretrivable loss of the original pronunciation.

    Many reconstructions of the Name have been offered such as YHVH, YHWH etc, and with speculatory vowels such as Yahweh (the popular), Yahwah, Yahveh, Yahvah, Yehowah, Jehovah etc etc. The fact that the Name cannot be YAHWEH and that none actually know either the actual pronunciation and the actual meaning of the Name is expounded briefly here: http://www.yahushua.net/YHWH.htm

    Most Standard works admit the same.

    In the book,The Jewish Bible, Pelc reveals:

    “Indeed, the name YHWH is a “non-name” name… Moses asks God for God’s name, and God replies, “I will be what I will be.” Thus this text, which seems to be about the revelation of God’s name, contains within it the concept that God cannot have a name at all. Admittedly, the midrash, the Zohar, and the source critics all seek to use the different names of God illustrated in the book of Exodus as a code by which to crack the meaning of the Bible. But there really is only one name of God-YHWH-which is not a name at all but an expression of the namelessness of God.[ J. Pelc (2008),The Jewish Bible, (Jewish Publication Society), pp.118-9 ].

    The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia admitted:

    “[t]he pronunciation of YHWH in the OT can never be certain, since the original Hebrew text used only consonants…. the early Greek transliterations of the name by Clement of Alexandria and Theodore!, respectively iaoue and iabe [(b pronounced as an English v), have led scholars to the view that ‘Yahweh’ is probably the closest equivalent to the original pronunciation”.[ G. W. Bromiley (1982),International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: E-J, (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing), p.502 ].

    According to Agape Bible Study,

    “Biblical scholars do not know how YHWH was originally pronounced because its original pronunciation, which was part of the sacred Oral Tradition of the Jews, was LOST when the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD … The rendering of YHWH as ‘Yahweh’ is a modern conjecture (first suggested in the 16thcentury by biblical scholar Gilbert Genebrard, professor of Hebrew at the College Royal in Paris) but which has been accepted by biblical scholars today as the most likely rendering”.[M. Hunt (2003),The Many Names of God, (Agape Bible Study].

    Given this, this Name YHWH is now quite defective and is therefore unfit to be used for the Perfect God Almighty to whom nothing defective is to be ascribed.

    So, the source of your argument is highly unreliable, the passage of your argument is doubly highly unreliable and the Name YHWH is now a defective name – all these facts seriously reflect against the whole of your argument.

    To recapitulate, Allah is the Arabic proper Noun used consistently by all Arabs – including Arab Jews and Christians – for the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world SINCE BEFORE ISLAM! So, this fact does not depend on whether the Qur’an is true or not to be a fact.

    The name Allah is proper name per excellence as it has ever been used consistently of only one Being, the heavenly Creator of the world, since before Islam. That is what makes a name to be proper. It therefore never depends on any Jewish translators of scriptures to determine this fact established by linguistic evidence and general usage of the Name.

    According to linguistics, the meaning of any word in a language is determined by what the general usage meant it to be. Given this, the meaning of the Proper Name Allah is the Invisible Heavenly Creator of the world, the sender of the patriarchs and all the Prophets.

    Rick Brown, Christian evangelical Bible scholar, says:“The meanings of a word are a matter of social convention. If Muslims use the term Allah to refer to the one and only God, the creator of the universe, the sustainer of all life, the bestower of all blessings, the sender of all prophets and Scripture, then that is what the term means for them, and not a moon god. Allah is God.”(International Journal of Frontier Mission, 2006, page 81).

    “And if a Christian tells a Muslim that he is worshipping the moon rather than the creator of the universe, then the Christian will be viewed as a liar and a blasphemer, and his testimony will have no credibility at all, because the Muslims know that it is God whom they fear and whom they seek to please.”(International Journal of Frontier Mission, 2006-2007, page 82).

    Thanks.

  41. REG

    Wrote
    Although there are many names for god in Islam Jesus being a first century Jew would have recognised only one proper name for deity – YHWH. Unlike “Allah” in the Quran, YHWH the Jewish name for deity cannot be replaced by “Rahman” or any other name. YHWH for Jesus was a unique name that was not only irreplaceable but eternal (Exodus 3:15).

    I correct REG

    Rahman and Rahim in Arabic means The Merciful or the Beneficent or Gracious God. I think it is only a foolish Jew who would not call his God the Beneficent, Merciful, Gracious, Love, Creator, Cherisher, Sustainer and all the 99 names of Allah in the Quran. If the God of the Jews according to you is not God of Love, then I think you are not telling the truth. I heard so many Jews calling God the Creator, Merciful and all the above. May be you always encounter stupid Jews.

    Arab Christians uses all the 99 names of Allah that can be found in the Quran. Taric Aziz of Iraq was a Saddam Hussein’s vice president and was an Arab Christian.

    Aziz that he uses is one of the 99 names of Allah which means ‘Al-Aziz’ Allah’s perfection as the possessor of power.

    Muslims uses Abdul = “servant of” in addition to any of the 99 names of Allah but some do not. Sometimes you will meet an Arab Christian called Abdul Aziz thinking you have met a Muslim and will be surprised he will tell you he is a Christian or a Jew or an Atheist.

    Thanks

  42. REG

    Wrote
    If Jesus accepted the Torah existing in the first century as divine scripture then he would have rejected the Quran as a false revelation. Two books ‘revealed’ by the same deity cannot be contradictory to the point of being opposites.

    I correct REG

    There is no contradiction between Torah and the Quran.

    I guess you did not have time to read the proof I kept posting to you which will make it hard for a kindergarten child not to realize the fact that Torah and the Quran preach the same God. I am prepared to be cutting and pasting the same thing to you till it enters your brain.

    Copy and paste, Copy and paste————————————————————-

    Compare the Torah and the Quran

    Once again here is my proof and evidence.

    BIBLE:
    .”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20

    QURAN:
    47:19 – You shall know that: “There is no other god beside ALLAH”,

    And your Allah is One Allah: There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    Proof

    Evidence:

    1.”since indeed God is one [hen]” Romans 3:30
    2.”to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
    3.”there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
    1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
    9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
    7.”Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God” 1 Timothy 1:17

    1.Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
    2.Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
    3.He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
    4.And there is none like unto Him.

    A kindergarten kid will not find it difficult to realize that both scriptures are talking about the same God of Abraham by identifying the key words of ONLY, ALONE, ONE GOD OF ABRAHAM.

    If this is not a proof to you then I do not know what you expect. 3 Persons(beings) in One being?

    There is nothing like 3 beings in 1 being in the whole Bible, so your God is just like 4 feet and seven feet tall analogy you gave us. But our God is just like EYES, NOSE, EARS analogy you gave us if you consider the verses above from the Quran and the Bible.

    End of copy and paste, End of copy and paste————————————————————

    Mr.REG

    It is rather the New Testament that has many contradictions within itself that I cannot mention all here but read the few below

    1.In Timothy God is said to be immortal i.e. cannot die. but Christians say God died for their sins.

    2. Jesus said all Torah laws must be followed, but Paul cancelled the laws

    3. The Gospels recorded contradicting account of the Crucifixion i.e. the people are close and the people who saw are at a distance.

    Distance is opposite to close.

    4. Jesus never said he is God, but Paul said he is God

    5. Gospel of John recorded Jesus as saying “The Father is greater than I” , so Mr. it is a contradiction if Jesus is God. Does someone greater than God exists? This is pure contradiction.

    6. God knows everything but God(Jesus) does not know the end date except the Father alone.

    7. God is Eternal but God died.

    8. The NT said God the Son and the Father existed eternally but the Torah said One God Only existed eternally

    9. NT and Paul said Jesus, a man must be worshiped but the Torah said nothing on the surface of this earth must be worshiped except the one and only God Yahweh

    10. The Torah and the NT said God is invisible for now, but Christians say the say God(Jesus)

    ………..and many more

    REG wrote
    Can you then cite a single independent New Testament scholar who believes that Jesus said that another prophet will come after him with another revelation to correct the corrupt Torah existing in the first century?

    Most New Testament scholars fall into two categories: Christian amd Independent.

    I respond
    Most of them have became Muslims and some became atheist after seeing the inconsistencies of New Testament. Dr. Jerald Dirks has masters of divinity and a Church deacon for so many years before becoming a Muslim after deciding he could not hold to the inconsistencies in NT and realizing that Jesus really meant a new corrector of the same monotheism Abraham and all the prophets preached will come.

    Bart Ehrman decided to become an atheist after long years battling with the inconsistencies in NT.

    There are couple of NT scholars i.e. Catholic priests like Iddris Tawfiq, from the Vatican who converted to Islam. When they do you do not hear it because the Christian news will black it out.

    REG Wrote
    Although there are many names for god in Islam Jesus being a first century Jew would have recognised only one proper name for deity – YHWH. Unlike “Allah” in the Quran, YHWH the Jewish name for deity cannot be replaced by “Rahman” or any other name. YHWH for Jesus was a unique name that was not only irreplaceable but eternal (Exodus 3:15).

    I Write to REG
    Then why did Jesus called God Father? Do you mean God has given birth to a Son? so Jesus can use “Father” to call God but not “Beneficent” or “Merciful” God? Jesus will not call God “Merciful” God? but “Father” ? because you think like idol worshiping Greeks of Jesus’s time who thinks God has Son?

    Well it is a blaspheme to think God has Son or is begotten. That is why Jesus said he cannot say all that he wants to say but someone or something will come and make that corrections.

    Do not depend on only scholars, but use your common sense to know that God does not have a Son whatsoever and the Christians must be corrected and that is why there should be something to correct them. If the Holy Spirit could not correct them, then it is the Prophet Mohammed who will correct them.

    Thanks

  43. The only reason Jews recognise YHWH to be the only proper name of God is because that is what their Bible says. They do not believe they have any authority from their scriptures to recognise any other name. THAT is why they reject all other names as proper names for YHWH. If the god of the Torah had given in Exo 3:15 his name as either Allah, Khudha, Parmeshwar or Zod then that would have been the only proper name for deity forevermore. If the Torah had given ten names in ten languages then all ten would have been the proper names of deity forever. But they would have refused to recognise an eleventh because they would have had no authority from their scriptures to do so. And it would not matter if the eleventh name had always been used to identify the only true God. What is the determining factor for them is that the eleventh name has not been sanctioned by THEIR scriptures. So it does not matter what language they speak the name remains the same because it is scripture based. They believe that this is the only name by which their god revealed himself and they have no authority from him to recognise any other. In other words they cannot recognise any other proper name for deity because it would be UNSCRIPTURAL.

    I believe Muslims are similar in that they probably see red lines for themselves in the Quran which they would refuse to cross.

  44. Reg wrote:

    “If Jesus accepted the Torah existing in the first century as divine scripture then he would have rejected the Quran as a false revelation. Two books ‘revealed’ by the same deity cannot be contradictory to the point of being opposites.”

    Response:

    Firstly, the fact that the Name Allah refers to the Heavenly Living Creator is not dependent on whether the Qur’an is truly from Him or not. You people of this mindset wrongly assume that outside the Qur’an, the Name Allah as an Arabic Proper Name of the Creator does not exist! Since before the Prophet and after him up to this day, Arab Jews and Christians and all other Arabs have been using the Name Allah for the Heavenly Creator alone.

    Arab Jews and Christians and other non-Muslim Arabs believed Allah to be the Creator and did not believe that the Qur’an was from Him.

    Therefore, to assume that the fact that the term Allah refers only to the Heavenly Creator depends on whether or not the Qur’an was from Him is a narrow-minded fallacious argument.

    Secondly, you just assumed in your argument that the Torah of the Bible is from God and then went on to build up your argument on it. The Torah of the Bible must be from God just because the Bible says so?! This is the fallacy of circular reasoning or begging the question.

    The Torah of the Bible is evidently not a work of Prophet Moses, as pointed out above. This Torah is contradictory, inconsistent, full to the brim with historical, scientific and textual errors, as established by Bible scholars.

    Therefore, to think that the Perfect God is the source of such a faulty work as the Torah of the Bible is beyond rationality.

    And it is a tragedy to the Jesus of the New Testament to think this Torah to have been written by Prophet Moses and thus was from God. This New Testament Jesus thus demonstrated his ignorance of what this Torah actually is and it shows that he was either fictitious (not the real historical Jesus) or he was just a false Prophet and messiah!!

    And to think that any subsequent revelation from God must conform 100% with this faulty Torah and never correct it is beyond rationality.

  45. REG

    Wrote
    THEIR scriptures. So it does not matter what language they speak the name remains the same because it is scripture based. They believe that this is the only name by which their god revealed himself and they have no authority from him to recognise any other. In other words they cannot recognise any other proper name for deity because it would be UNSCRIPTURAL

    I correct REG
    Because God is not for Jews alone, in fact God is for all mankind and as loving as He is, I do not think he will have His proper name for some particular group of people and leave others. I know God Almighty is a loving God and has His proper name in other languages and for other people too.

    That is why all Arabic speaking people whether Jew, Christian, Muslims, Pagans, agnostics etc. have Allah as the proper name for the creator of everything. I gave you a link above that based on history, research and studies it has established that before and after Islam, Allah is the proper name for the creator of everything and is recognized by Jews.

    Jesus himself used Allaha, Elaha on the cross to refer to the creator of everything. Jesus used Father to refer to the creator of everything. If the Allaha or Allah and the Father that Jesus himself used to call his God is not God’s name, then those who said that have insulted Jesus Christ and his God and that is a big sin.

    Muslims accept any name for God if that God is One, Only and Alone and there is nothing besides him as the Bible said.

    Muslim will quickly accepts that he worships the same God with Unitarian Christian or a Jew as far as the God is One, Only, Alone and there is nothing besides him. Call him any name you want as far as the name is not offensive. Jehovah, Jah not rastafari but Jah means one God. Rastafari means Emperor Haile Selaissie and we do not believe he is God or prophet. If you call One, Only and Alone God and there is nothing besides him as Jehovah or Jah, we will be happy with you.

    On the other hand the Christians say Jesus, a man, and an object on Earth is Yahweh and that is blaspheme.

    Thank.

  46. You said :” Because God is not for Jews alone, in fact God is for all mankind and as loving as He is, I do not think he will have His proper name for some particular group of people and leave others.”

    I don’t think that Jews believe that God is for them alone. The reason why they hold YHWH to be the name of God is because they believe it was given to them by way of revelation and not just because someone told them that this was a good name for god. Consequently without believing in the Quran they could never consider Allah to be a name that god has revealed for himself. Jews probably would not have any qualms about other people calling the true god by some other appropriate name but they could not recognise this name as a REVEALED name. Any religious belief which is not derived from revealed scriptures is based on human intellect and not revelation.

    You said: “Jesus himself used Allaha, Elaha on the cross to refer to the creator of everything. “

    Since the Jewish scriptures never recognise “Eli” or “Eloi” as a proper name for deity can you cite a single independent New Testament scholar who believes that Jesus on the cross recognised “Eloi” or “Eli” as a proper name like YHWH?

    You said: “Secondly, you just assumed in your argument that the Torah of the Bible is from God…”

    I try not to assume the divine inspiration of the Torah but if I unintentionally did then please specify where and I will correct it.

    You said: “First, most Bible scholars throughout the world do not hold to the relatively late and invalid tradition of the mosaic authorship of the Torah of the Bible for many internal and external evidences.”

    Can you then cite a single independent scholar of the Old Testament who believes that in approximately 1400 BC there existed a Torah written by Moses teaching purely Islamic doctrine? Can you cite a single independent Old Testament scholar who believes that there has EVER existed a Torah teaching purely Islamic doctrine? Can you cite a single independent Old Testament scholar who believes that Judaism has evolved from Islam?

    In a debate entitled: Can We Trust Today’s Torah? (11th April 2014) Muslim apologist Sadat Anwar said the following “the Documentary Hypothesis is today the most dominant hypothesis among scholars concerning the composition of the Torah.”

    According to this Hypothesis no part of the Torah existed in written form before approximately 950 BC. If that is true then Islam cannot be true as this Hypothesis rules out the possibility of Moses having any input in today’s Torah.

  47. REG

    Wrote
    I don’t think that Jews believe that God is for them alone. The reason why they hold YHWH to be the name of God is because they believe it was given to them by way of revelation and not just because someone told them that this was a good name for god. Consequently without believing in the Quran they could never consider Allah to be a name that god has revealed for himself. Jews probably would not have any qualms about other people calling the true god by some other appropriate name but they could not recognise this name as a REVEALED name. Any religious belief which is not derived from revealed scriptures is based on human intellect and not revelation.

    I correct REG.

    Revealed? Revelation? God revealed? What do you understand by revealed, God revealed? or revelation.

    There are so many religions in this world and each believed its scriptures is revealed by God and therefore its scriptures is revelation from God, the creator of everything.

    So, no religion holds the key of heaven. We are all believers, including Hindus, Rastafarians, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Idol worshipers, voodoo kings etc.

    We are all sure about our beliefs and therefore it is not wise for any one to say to other that his scripture is the only revelation from God. Even prophets of God had admitted that there are other revelations from God. Jesus himself acknowledge the law and scriptures that God had revealed before him.

    If Jews believed their scripture is a revelation and REVEALED by God, so do Muslims, Christians, Hindu believe their scriptures too is a revelation from God. So, it is childish for anyone to think somebody’s scripture is the only God REVEALED is a discussions such as this when we are all trying to come out with a sensible solution to how can God be called. In fact God can be called by a sensible name, as far as He is One, Only, Alone and nothing besides him as the Bible said.

    THE JEWS DO NOT BELIEVE THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE WHERE APOSTLE PAUL OF TARSUS SAID, THE LAW WAS ABOLISHED AND THAT Galatians 2:21
    New International Version
    I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

    Obviously, you do not believe in the Jewish scripture and revelations because your God is Jesus, a man and 3 beings 1 being which is not in the whole Bible so you belief is in contradiction to Jewish revelation.

    Proof: You do not believe in this verses from the Jewish scriptures. for the verse below is different from 3 beings 1 being Trinitarian God.

    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    Evidence:

    1.”since indeed God is one [hen]” Romans 3:30
    2.”to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
    3.”there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
    1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
    9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
    7.”Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God” 1 Timothy 1:17

    1.Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
    2.Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
    3.He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
    4.And there is none like unto Him.

    /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    REG wrote
    You said: “Jesus himself used Allaha, Elaha on the cross to refer to the creator of everything. “

    Since the Jewish scriptures never recognise “Eli” or “Eloi” as a proper name for deity can you cite a single independent New Testament scholar who believes that Jesus on the cross recognised “Eloi” or “Eli” as a proper name like YHWH?

    I correct REG

    I believe in Jesus more than a new Testament scholar and Jesus called God as Father, Allaha, Elaha in his mother tongue and he did not call God Yahweh. So, I also call God the name Jesus called God and not necessarily Yahweh which has no vowels.

    Thanks

  48. REG

    Wrote
    Can you then cite a single independent scholar of the Old Testament who believes that in approximately 1400 BC there existed a Torah written by Moses teaching purely Islamic doctrine? Can you cite a single independent Old Testament scholar who believes that there has EVER existed a Torah teaching purely Islamic doctrine? Can you cite a single independent Old Testament scholar who believes that Judaism has evolved from Islam?

    I correct REG
    We find in the scriptures that all prophets preached in worshiping ONE, ONLY, TRUE, ALONE GOD AND NOTHING BESIDES HIM. That is a criteria for believing they that they teach purely Islamic doctrine. Jesus fell and pray like Muslims, Moses removed his sandals and prayed like Muslims, Abraham fasted and sacrificed and animal like Muslims.

    My common sense is enough for this but not only scholars. Do not depend on scholars alone but add your intellect and common sense to search for the true God but not only faith.

    evidence

    1.”since indeed God is one [hen]” Romans 3:30
    2.”to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
    3.”there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
    1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
    9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
    7.”Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God” 1 Timothy 1:17

    1.Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
    2.Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
    3.He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
    4.And there is none like unto Him.

    Thanks

  49. REG

    Wrote
    Jews probably would not have any qualms about other people calling the true god by some other appropriate name but they could not recognise this name as a REVEALED name. Any religious belief which is not derived from revealed scriptures is based on human intellect and not revelation

    I corrected REG
    Other people too has God’s REVEALED name in their scripture. Do they think they are the only ones who received revelation? If that revealed name has it that, that God is ONE and Only and ALONE and nothing else besides Him, then that is the True God of Abraham and a law to follow. No religion has this in the world except Islam and Judaism.

    Thanks.

  50. You said : “The Quran reminded the Jews who believed their messiah cannot be crucified that yes their messiah is not crucified.”

    Quote
    In modern scholarship, the baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion are considered to be two historically certain facts about Jesus.[4][6] For example, James Dunn states that these “two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent” and “rank so high on the ‘almost impossible to doubt or deny’ scale of historical facts” that they are often the starting points for the study of the historical Jesus.[4] Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him.[7] John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be.[8] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now “firmly established” that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[9] Craig Blomberg states that most scholars in the third quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable.[5] Christopher M. Tuckett states that, although the exact reasons for the death of Jesus are hard to determine, one of the indisputable facts about him is that he was crucified.[10] (Wikipedia)

    The majority of even non-Christian New Testament scholars with regards to Jesus consider death by crucifixion to be the most certain element about him.

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