Christian apologists constantly claim that Jesus’ mission was foretold in the Old Testament. Things like the messiah coming and dying the sins of mankind, and then resurrecting after three days, was all prophesized by the prophets of old.
There is a big problem with this however, and it is a problem that Christian apologists have no good answers to. If the Old Testament spoke of the things they claim, then why were Jesus disciples and followers shocked and saddened when he died? If this was foretold and taught already, shouldn’t they have been expecting this, rather than the opposite?
Not only were his followers and disciples saddened and shocked by his death, when it comes to his resurrection they were also doubtful, they didn’t believe at first. But if the Old Testament talked about the messiah coming to die and rising after three days, then shouldn’t have they been waiting those three days until Jesus came back to life? When we read the gospels we don’t see that they were waiting or expecting Jesus to come back, which is why they were very doubtful when they started hearing about him coming back to life.
Obviously these are big problems as anyone can see, the two do not go together, both the disciples and followers of Jesus were massively ignorant on what their Jewish Bible taught them, or the Jewish Bible never taught such things.
If Jesus’ disciples were that ignorant, then why should anyone take their writings, this in itself possess a whole series of other problems, what else were they ignorant about, and what else did they not understand or misunderstand?
But what if the disciples and followers of Jesus were not ignorant? Well there is one answer that makes a lot of sense, and something that is very logical. If Jesus’ disciples were not expecting him to die, and if Jesus’ followers were not expecting him to resurrect, and if they were doubtful about his resurrection, then the simple fact is because they never knew of such teachings. It’s that simple, the Jewish Bible never taught such things for anybody to believe in them.
So the disciples were saddened at Jesus’ death precisely because the Jewish Bible never taught or foretold of such a thing, that the messiah would come and be slain by his enemies and crucified like a common criminal or insurgent. The disciples were not expecting Jesus to rise from the dead because the Jewish Bible never taught or foretold of such a thing, that after being killed the messiah would rise after three days. The disciples were doubtful of Jesus rising from the dead, again because the Jewish Bible never taught such things for them to be expecting it.
When these points are raised towards Christian apologists, they never have good answers. What Christian missionaries and apologists would like us to believe is that they understand the Jewish Bible, and that they can see and read the passages that clearly talk about the messiah coming to die for the sins of the world, and to rise after three days. However the disciples and followers of Jesus, and literally every single other person who read the Jewish Bible, were never able to come to this understand, only Christian missionaries and apologists were able to do so.
Categories: Christianity, Judaism
The Muslim Debate Initiative 
it doesn’t seem like any of the conversation between jesus and peter are historical.
bart ehrman believes that jesus DID NOT predict his own death.
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i think it ISN’T peter who is rebuking jesus, i think it is the jews in marks day rebuking christians who believe in a messiah as suffering servant.
according to ehrman, jesus saw himself as a liberator messiah type.
mark is not reporting the words between jesus and peter but making up stories .
it is more likely that peter saw jesus as warrior messiah and jesus himself acknowledged himself as warrior messiah.
he is making up stories like matthew had to make up the story about guards at the tomb because IN matthews day jews were spreading the story about stolen body.
mark is jesus/christians and peter = the jews in marks day.
does the story make any sense that jesus does a complete 360 turn and uses suffering servant passages which don’t convince any of his deciples?
You say it doesn’t seem like the conversations between Jesus and Peter are historical and Bart Ehrman believes that Jesus did not predict his own death. What is your historical basis for making this claim and can you tell us what Bart Ehrman is also basing this on please ?
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You say you think it isn’t Peter who is rebuking Jesus but the Jews rebuking Christians who believe in a Messiah as suffering servant. Again what is your basis for this?
You say according to Ehrman, Jesus saw himself as a liberator (warrior) Messiah type. Again where is your supporting evidence? The Gospels (Injil) are clear as to how Jesus saw himself and they were written as eye witness accounts.
You say Mark is not reporting the words between Jesus and Peter but making up stories. Can you tell us exactly what verses you are referring to hear because without references you are not making sense. You are merely presuming and I think you are making up stories.
You say it is more likely that Peter saw Jesus as a warrior messiah and Jesus himself acknowledged himself as warrior messiah. This is just your theory with no evidence. Please tell us where exactly Jesus said he is a Warrior messiah ?
Have you read the two letters of Peter in the New testament. I suspect not. If you do you will see Peters perspective on Jesus Christ as The Messiah.
You say the story does not make any sense, that Jesus does a complete 360 turn and uses suffering servant passages which don’t convince any of his disciples?
So what exactly is the 360 turn please? You are not clear or making sense.
To make the claims you make MrQuestioner you need to provide more evidence and a greater knowledge of 1st century Christian writings. Without this all you are doing is creating an ideologue that fits your own views.
LETS see , first of all ,what do the jews who read thier torah believe?
the suffering servant is a sinner and has to atone for his own guilt. if the ss acknowledges his guilt, god will prolong his days.
what does “prolong his days” mean?
quote:
Deuteronomy 30:5. And the Lord, your God, will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed, and you [too] will take possession of it, and He will do good to you, and He will make you more numerous than your forefathers. 30:9. And the Lord, your God, will make you abundant for good in all the work of your hands, in the fruit of your womb, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your soil. For the Lord will once again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your forefathers,
This is what it means when it says: he would see his offspring, prolong his days. They will live in prosperity and have many descendants.
The length of days can apply to the nation as a whole indicating they will not disappear, or to the fact that their life spans will be extended as it says in Isaiah 65:
17. For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the first ones shall not be remembered, neither shall they come into mind.
18. But rejoice and exult forever [in] what I create, for behold I create Jerusalem a rejoicing and its people an exultation.
19. And I will rejoice with Jerusalem, and I will exult with My people, and a sound of weeping or a sound of crying shall no longer be heard therein.
20. There shall no longer be from there a youth or an old man who will not fill his days, for the youth who is one hundred years old shall die, and the sinner who is one hundred years old shall be cursed.
21. And they shall build houses and inhabit them, and they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
If one dies at 100 one is still called a youth! That is long life. And God will have enjoyment from them, as this verse ends: and that the desire of HaShem would succeed by his hand. As we see in Zechariah 14:16.
And it will come to pass that everyone left of the nations who came up against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to prostrate himself to the King, the Lord of Hosts, and to celebrate the festival of Tabernacles.
end quote
so it has NOTHING to do with a WEEKEND death and then an everlasting resurrection. jesus’ weekend death and resurrection are two major pillars in christianity which are MISSING from the text of isiah 53.
“Have you read the two letters of Peter in the New testament. I suspect not. If you do you will see Peters perspective on Jesus Christ as The Messiah.”
peter didn’t write anything.
http://adversusapologetica.wordpress.com/2013/12/17/why-scholars-doubt-the-traditional-authors-of-the-gospels/
you’ll love the comments section.
“What is your historical basis for making this claim and can you tell us what Bart Ehrman is also basing this on please ?”
i quote this :
Ehrman thinks that Jesus thought he was going to bring about a miraculous intervention at the Temple and was surprised when it did not happen.
“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”
Well the Gospels are apologetics for the crucifixion, so they do not, in themselves, have overt clues that Jesus did *not* predict his own death. They are attempts at explanations after the fact. The reasons it is thought to be unlikely that Jesus predicted his own death and resurrection (aside from the fact that most sane people do not intentionally seek out one of the most brutal and agonizing forms of execution in history) is that there was no pre-Christian expectation that the Messiah was supposed to do that. It would have made no sense within the religious or historical context of Jesus and the disciples for a Messianic aspirant to say he would die. The notion of a Messiah dying for people’s sins was a Christian redefinition of the Messiah built around a need to explain the crucifixion.
END QUOTE
IF there was no pre christian expectation, why would deciples, who read isiah 53 assume that “prolonged his days” would refer to weekend death and permanent resurrection?
more to come stay tuned
Why are you even quoting Deuteronomy 30, Isaiah 65:17 and Zechariah 14:16 ?
These are not even messianic prophecies.
Are you trying to say that the nation is Israel is the Mesiah. If so then this does not fit with well known Messianic prophecies such as Isaiah 53.
You need to read the New testament ManSubZero. There are two first century letters written by Peter in the New Testament. I suggest you make an effort to read them If you do you will see Peters perspective on Jesus Christ as The Messiah.”
If you are familiar with Erhmans work you will know that in the appendix of his book titled “Misquoting Jesus” Erhmans states –
“The position I argue for in ‘Misquoting Jesus’ does not actually stand at odds with …(the) position that the essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament.”
So in other words in trying to use Erhman to prove any argument you have is a waste of time.
quote:
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,b and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesc will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bed bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will bee loosed in heaven.” 20Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
QUOTE:
The reasons it is thought to be unlikely that Jesus predicted his own death and resurrection (aside from the fact that most sane people do not intentionally seek out one of the most brutal and agonizing forms of execution in history) is that there was no pre-Christian expectation that the Messiah was supposed to do that. It would have made no sense within the religious or historical context of Jesus and the disciples for a Messianic aspirant to say he would die. The notion of a Messiah dying for people’s sins was a Christian redefinition of the Messiah built around a need to explain the crucifixion.
ME:
what i don’t understand is why is jesus’ blessing peter when peter does not even have jesus’ understanding of messiah in mind?
after all that blessing, jesus does a 360 degrees turn and starts rebuking peter:
QUOTE:
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
23Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
ME:
what? stumbling block who got blessed and rewarded? think about it from peters perspective , he heard that he would get rewarded and later on is told that he is a stumbling block for not having jesus’ interpretation of messiah in mind?
“raised on the 3rd day” does NOT mean “prolong his days”
You say you don’t understand why Jesus blessed Peter when Peter does not even have Jesus’ understanding of Messiah in mind? And after that blessing, Jesus does a 360 degrees turn and starts rebuking Peter?
Have you ever read the four gospels from beginning to end? It appears as though you haven’t,. If you have then read them again and get the feel for the whole story rather than just quoting verses out of context. You will see that Peter as well as the other disciples grew in their understanding of Jesus as the Messiah as time went on.
You say the reasons it is unlikely that Jesus predicted his own death and resurrection is that there was no pre-Christian expectation that the Messiah was supposed to do that.
That is not correct. Psalm 16.8 – 11 and Isaiah 53 both point to the Messiah dying and being raised again.
Your discussion on prolong his days has been taken out of context from verses that are not Messianic prophecies. Jesus himself said there would be a “weekend” death and resurrection when he said –
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”.
Matthew 12.39-40.
LOL , this is the best they have ? LOL
No they were not expecting it but they were mislead by the Jewish leaders according to Christians but Jesus knew the truth and disciples were like us who sometimes lost faith but today both Muslims and Christians agree that they were blessed righteous people
The writer is saying nothing new here that Christians haven’t known for centuries and resolved centuries ago.
Prophecy is never clear but if you look you will see. The Messianic prophecies of the Old testament line up perfectly with Jesus. Read Isaiah 52 and Psalm 16.10. Of course the disciples didn’t fully understand the fit between Jesus and prophecy at the time. Who could fully understand a human being growing into the complete fullness of God ? But they certainly did after the prophecies were fulfilled.
If any one reads the Injil they will see that while the disciples may have not understood at the time, Jesus certainly knew he was the Messiah and that he would die and be raised again (Mathew 12.39).
You will also see that Jesus actually concealed this from others, he forbade those who recognized his full identity to tell anyone and he refused to prove his identity when he was challenged to do so. Why did he do that ? Sometimes God does not make things clear due to wanting his higher purposes to be achieved. Sometimes the people aren’t ready for it.
Why did God the Father and Christ Jesus not make his identity and mission clearer through earlier scripture ?
1. Because Jesus knew that his identity was beyond human understanding, and is revealed only to believers who are enabled by God to search for this truth.
2. Because he did not want people to be distracted from his basic purpose and message: Jesus’ reason for coming to earth the first time was to become a complete and perfect human being just like us, He wanted people to accept Him as a perfect man as their Savior. Showing people that He was God the Son, the King of Israel or a great prophet would only distract them from this purpose.
3. Because Jesus knew many people have so hardened their hearts and surrendered to Satan, that they could not recognize who he really is and why he came.
Scripture is full of statements about Gods secret wisdom understood only by those to whom God reveals it.
And later the disciples certainly did realize it. This makes their accounts all the more credible because none of them were expecting his resurrection. They were all amazed by it. Jesus had told them to expect it, but they had not understood his words. After all, nobody had been raised from the dead to everlasting life before Jesus. Many events took place before the apostles; (his closest friends) were convinced.
Only the physical resurrection of Jesus could have changed the apostles. Before his death, they feared for their lives. Sadly, “They all left him and fled”. Then what happened! They became fearless preachers. Peter boldly spoke about Jesus on the day of Pentecost, “him you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up … God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified” (Acts 2:23,24,36).
Why didn’t people recognize Jesus as the Messiah? Why don’t people recognize him today? I suspect that just as those who lived long ago, we look for the appearance of
A mighty warrior rather than a humble servant. We watch for power when we ought to find selfless service.
The writer asks If Jesus’ disciples were that ignorant, then why should anyone take their writings. Well one obvious reason for Muslims is that the Quran says the Injil (New Testament ) is from God. I would think for Muslims that is a good reason !
The writer says if Jesus’ disciples were not expecting him to die and resurrect, then they never knew of such teachings. Obviously the writer hasn’t followed the story all the way through. Why not read Acts 2.25 where his disciple Peter finally puts it all together by quoting Psalm 16. 8 – 11. Why not even go further and read the two letters of Peter to really get Peters perspective on The Messiah ?
The writers logic is disingenuous and the argument is another sad example of the “Straw man argument”.
When Christ comes back again He will come to be exalted and honored as King and Lord of Lords.
“Only the physical resurrection of Jesus could have changed the apostles. Before his death, they feared for their lives. Sadly, “They all left him and fled”. Then what happened! They became fearless preachers. Peter boldly spoke about Jesus on the day of Pentecost, “him you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up … God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified” (Acts 2:23,24,36).”
notice that jesus and peter do not kiss and makeup in mark?
notice that jesus appearing to his deciples in galilee is not DEPENDANT on the women taking the message to the deciples and informing them about alleged resurrection? he , according to the text , is already on his way. the deciples, according to mark are complete failures
now read this
you will love these articles with all your heart and all your soul
http://vridar.org/2012/05/16/mcgraths-missing-ending-what-was-marks-story-part-1/
http://vridar.org/2012/05/17/mcgraths-missing-ending-what-was-marks-story-part-2/
http://vridar.org/2012/05/27/mcgraths-missing-ending-what-was-marks-story-part-3/
http://jamestabor.com/2012/08/25/the-strange-ending-of-the-gospel-of-mark-and-why-it-makes-all-the-difference/
So what if Jesus and Peter do not kiss and make up. What is your point?
You say Jesus appearing to the disciples is not dependent on the women informing the disciples about the resurrection and he is already on his way. You say according to Mark they are complete failures. Again what is your point here? What does this have anything to do with the Old Testament fore telling the crucifixion?
Here are some interesting links for you-
http://www.str.org/articles/is-the-new-testament-text-reliable
http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence
http://www.bethinking.org/is-the-bible-reliable/archaeology-and-the-historical-reliability-of-the-new-testament
At the end of the day the writer and of the article and yourself are not saying anything that Christians have not been aware of for centuries.
No one expected that Christ, the incarnated Son of God would die on the cross. Jesus had to reveal this. The OT only says this in veiled form.
Seriously, who wrties these awful articles. You guys need bible studies because these articles just show that you are way of, in understanding scripture. Please stick to your Quran because to those who know scripture, you guys just appear utterly silly. This article can be answered in such an easy way, i find it strange no christian teacher have given you guys good answers to these seemingly strange topics. Seriously you guys are very misinformed.