It’s a common assertion to sometimes hear missionaries and some Jewish critics making the claim that the Quran plagiarizes from the Bible. The reasoning behind this claim is that many of the same stories and figures mentioned in the Bible, are repeated in the Quran.
Now the irony is that if the Quran had different stories about these figures and what happened, these same critics would use this to argue against the Quran, that the Quran has come from a different source (god) from the one that revealed the Bible. In fact, this is exactly what the critics argue, because while many of the same stories are retold in the Quran, there are some areas where the story differs from that of the Bible. For example in the Quran it was Ishmael, not Isaac, who was the sacrificial son of Abraham. The father of Abraham is also different in the Bible and the Quran. Incidents regarding Solomon are also different between the Bible and the Quran and so forth.
So the critics allege that these differences is because the author of the Quran is in fact not the same author of the Bible, thus Islam is incorrect when it asserts that it follows the same God as the previous peoples (Jews and Christians). So on one hand when the Quran has the same story, it’s plagiarizing, on the other hand, when it has a somewhat different take on what happened, it’s proof that it’s false! This is a classic example of you’re damned if you do, and damned if you don’t; it’s a lose-lose situation no matter what.
Now what about the similarities between the Quran and the Bible, did the Quran simply copy these stories from the Bible as an act of plagiarizing? The answer is no, at the end of the day, the author and the one who revealed the Quran, is the same one who was involved in the previous revelations, thus we would expect to find similarities. The God of the Quran is the same God who commanded Moses to free the Israelites from Egypt, the same God that gave Moses his miracles and signs against the Pharaoh. The Quran doesn’t claim to be a different or new revelation in the sense that it’s bringing something totally different, rather the Quran as it says is reminding people.
Moreover if the Quran was simply copying from the Bible, and this was supposedly being done by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), why would he then change some of the stories? It makes no sense that if he has no divine source behind him, to be changing stories and some specific details, which can then be used as an argument against him later on. Rather if he was a false prophet, he would have copied the stories and left them as they are, and then add his own touch to it by adding that he’s now from that line to continue from where the others left off. So why the need to change the stories (an argument the critics bring up) if he was simply plagiarizing? That makes no sense at all. If the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) wanted to win followers from the Christians and Jews (as a false prophet), the best and easiest way of doing so would be to conform completely to what is in their scriptures, rather than diverging on some (key) areas.
It makes no sense from somebody who is (supposedly) disingenuous with ulterior motives to plagiarize from another text for these disingenuous ulterior motives, to then decide to change parts of the story from the texts he’s supposedly plagiarizing from, thus losing him followers and bringing unnecessary arguments against him.
In conclusion, the similarities between the Bible and the Quran is not down to plagiarizing, but rather it is down to both books having the same author-source, the one who revealed and was involved in the incidents during the times of the Bible, is the same one who revealed and was involved during the time of the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Categories: Christianity, Featured, Responses to anti-Islamic Polemics
The Muslim Debate Initiative 
The Bible was completed by the Apostles of Jesus Christ after God sent his one and only Son to Israel after sending many prophets to his people Israel. The GOD of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is a different author-source than Allah which Quran honors. By your own admission the Quran follows the path of Ishmael and so these two books have different lineage and purpose. According to Jewish scripture since Muhammad claimed to be a prophet and did not speak the word of the LORD then he was a false prophet. Therefore these two books are not in agreement and have different source authors.
Ps 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel.
Ps 147:20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
Dear Youngearth, you should have read at least chapter 112 of the Holy Quran before you wrote this ill-informed response. This chapter has only 4 short verses that proclaim who the Almighty Creator is.
Dear Youngearth
I couldn’t see where the author admitted that “the Quran follows the path of Ishmael”. It is your prejudice reading things unwritten
Here is the quote from the main article –
“For example in the Quran it was Ishmael, not Isaac, who was the sacrificial son of Abraham. ”
This reinforces my point that the Bible and Quran are not in agreement.
Here is what is written from the Bible –
ISAAC – FATHER OF AN EVERLASTING COVENANT
Ge 17:19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
Ge 21:8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast.
ISHMAEL – FATHER OF A GREAT NATION
Ge 21:9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking,
Ge 21:10 and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.”
Ge 21:11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son.
Ge 21:12 But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.
Ge 21:13 I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”
Ge 21:14 Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba.
Ge 21:15 When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes.
Ge 21:16 Then she went off and sat down nearby, about a bowshot away, for she thought, “I cannot watch the boy die.” And as she sat there nearby, she began to sob.
Ge 21:17 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there.
Ge 21:18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Ge 21:19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.
Ge 21:20 God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer.
Ge 21:21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt
ABRAHAM ISAAC AND THE SACRIFICE
Ge 22:2 Then God said, “Take your son , your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.”
Ge 22:7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?” “Yes, my son?” Abraham replied. “The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”
Ge 22:8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together
In your comment you said, ” By your own admission the Quran follows the path of Ishmael” When I asked you to show me wherehthe admission was you say, “For example in the Quran it was Ishmael, not Isaac, who was the sacrificial son of Abraham”
So what exactly did you mean “following the path of Ismael”?
What I meant was that the genetic descendent(s) of Abraham-Ishmael (Muslims) wrote the Quran. The path of many devout Muslims today is jihad and they justify their violent actions by quoting many verses directly from the Quran.
On the other hand the genetic descendents of Abraham-Issac-Jacob (Jews) wrote the Bible. The majority of orthodox Jews strictly follow the Old Covenant and do not acknowledge Jesus as the Christ. Whereas the gentile Christians and a minority of Jewish Christians follow the New Covenant believing that it is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. The path most Christians follow today is peace because Jesus is the prince of peace.
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born,to us a son is given,and the government will be on his shoulders.And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end.He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
“The Bible was completed by the Apostles of Jesus Christ after God sent his one and only Son to Israel after sending many prophets to his people Israel. ”
quote:
Mark’s two narratives in which Jesus feeds thousands of people by multiplying loaves of breae (6:30-44 and 8:1-10) finds an obvious — and often recognized — parallel in the Elijah-Elisha narrative. The shared details are numerous. All three stories take place in a context where food is needed. In each story, only a small amount of food is available, with each story specifying the amount. Both Elisha and Jesus give instructions that the small amount of food be distributed, and in all three stories, the instructions are met with doubt/hesitation. In all three stories, the food is distributed to and eaten by a large number of people, with each story specifying the number of people present. Finally, at the end of each story, an abundance of food remains. These shared narrative details, as well as the shared order of events are laid out clearly in the chart below.
That the Markan pericopes are dependent on the Elijah-Elisha narrative is strongly supported by the criteria of shared narrative details and shared narrative order. To deny such dependence seems impossible. Certainly there are differences between the two stories, but these differences are easily explained, and do not stretch the bounds of Greco-Roman imitation. Mark has clearly expanded what is a brief episode in the Elijah-Elisha narrative, adding and changing a number of narrative details. Some of these changes can be attributed to to Markan intensification of the Elijah-Elisha account — an intensification that reflects that Jesus is greater than Elisha. . . . . Mark has taken a relatively simple miracle episode from the Elijah-Elisha narrative, and given it a prominent and significant place in the gospel. . . .
It seems impossible to deny that the Markan evangelist has used the 2 Kings account of Elisha multiplying bread as a pattern for his double account of Jesus doing the same thing. That the Elijah-Elisha narrative is a literary source for Mark at this point in the gospel is virtually certain.
What has this complicated analysis got to do with the article?
if there were 4 independent eye witnesses to a miracle and all 4, instead of using thier recollections, decided to lock unto the pattern in one of the ot stories , then don’t you think something is not right?
One of the most amazing shifts of narrative in the Qur’an, of course, is the denial of Jesus’ crucifixion. If Mohammad (saw) was the author of the Qu’ran, he had every reason to continue the story of Jesus and his alleged death. Such a tactic would win him the Christian support, while at the same time, it would condemn his enemies, the jews, as the murderers of Allah’s apostle. It would, indeed, be a very counter-intuitive and insane thing to do, to merely deny the alleged death of Jesus on a whim.`Also, if he wanted to deny Jesus’ death, and he was a false prophet, he must have had a very very good reason, and as such, that reason was never revealed. A false prophet who denies something, which if he did NOT deny 1.could win him over support , would be convenient, would be an opportunity to rebuke and condemn his sworn enemies, and 2. which was universally accepted by his contemporaries, would go into fanciful detail as to WHAT really happened to Jesus, and why we have to reject his death. The Qu’ran merely rejects Jesus’ death and leaves it at that. For, God truly does not owe anyone explanation beyond what He sees fit.
re: “It seems impossible to deny that the Markan evangelist has used the 2 Kings account of Elisha multiplying bread as a pattern for his double account of Jesus doing the same thing. That the Elijah-Elisha narrative is a literary source for Mark at this point in the gospel is virtually certain.”
Rather than being a literary device these were eye-witness narratives by the Apostles who traveled with Jesus for 3 years. The Apostle John’s narrative also indicates that the Jews recognized by the miracles that Jesus was doing the similarity to Old Testament prophets and that Jesus himself was surely the foretold Prophet.
Jn 6:12 When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.”
Jn 6:13 So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten.
Jn 6:14 After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.”
Jn 6:15 Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.
Jn 21:24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
why is mark using OT lines and ot sequence of events when he had oral traditions right in front of him? do you tell incidents in your life through OT wording and sequence? do you, like the gospel writers, lock onto ot usage of words? why did matthew, when he reproduces stories from mark, lock onto markan wording even when he is at pains to alter marks narrative? think about it.
“n 21:24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.”
“The Apostle John’s narrative also indicates that the Jews recognized by the miracles that Jesus was doing the similarity to Old Testament prophets and that Jesus himself was surely the foretold Prophet.”
you just made the problem worse. if mark had jews describing the miracles of jesus, why does mark LOCK onto the ot narrative? why is the gospel of john’s wording UNLIKE marks?
you christians can build your jesus out of old testament words and upon closer examination of the ot narrative has nothing to do with jesus.
here is an example
http://judaismsanswer.com/Isaiah%2053%20Part%204%20-%20Objections.htm
jews do not believe that the DEATH of the animal is IMPORTANT. what is important is repentance and guilt . in christianity, jesus’ ‘weekend death’ is more important than anything a human can do. what is the point of this ? well, christians can create stories out of 4 legged animals and fit thier jesus into it, so by the same logic, mark was fitting his jesus in to the elijah and elisha narrative and making him better than them.
bart ehrman writes:
I sometimes have difficulty convincing my students that if two documents have word-for-word agreements(whether a newspaper article, an ancient narrative, or a plagiarized term paper), then someone is copying someone. And so I do a little experiment with them. I did it this last week. I walk into class, and start fussing around in front of the room (of 240 students). I put down my bag; I take out my books; I take off my coat; I put my books back in the bag; I fiddle with the powerpoint; I walk around; I put my coat back on – I do things. Students are puzzled. And then I tell them each to take out a piece of paper and a pen and to write down everything they’ve seen me do since I came into the room.
I then collect four papers, at random, and tell everyone that we are going to do a synoptic comparison. And I read, one by one, each paper, asking everyone else if anyone has a *single sentence* that is just like one of the four. The four are always completely different. And no one – ever, in my 30 years of teaching – has a sentence (or even four or five words in sequence) the same as any of the four.
Then I ask them what they would think if I picked up four papers from the class, and two of them had an entire paragraph, word for word the same. What would they think then? And of course they say “Someone was cheating.” Yes, of course! Someone was copying someone else. But then I ask, what if I didn’t do this exercise today, but I waited forty, fifty, or sixty years, and I didn’t ask you, but I asked four people each of whom knew someone who had a cousin whose wife was next door neighbors with someone whose brother once knew someone in the class to write what happened that day – and they had entire sentences that were exactly alike, word for word?
my question
if matthew had all different oral traditions available to him, FROM DIFFERENT minds, why is he locking unto markan order and wording?
why does he lock unto markan order and wording even when he wants to ALTER mark?
By his own confession Bart Erhman is an agnostic and not a follower of Jesus Christ. His testimony is without merit because he was NOT an eyewitness and his own words accuse him.
The Gospel writers walked and talked with Jesus for three years. These men were recognized as Apostles and authorities of the things they spoke and wrote about. I do not find it surprising that some stories intersect in a variety of ways because they were all eye witness to the same events.
In the old Testament it was not sufficient to have only one witness give testimony. For instance in Criminal cases:
Dt 17:6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness
Dt 19:15 One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
The matter of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was established by at least 3 witnesses (Matthew,Mark,John) with each Apostle giving their own unique testimony.
Each gospel was composed in the manner the author chose.
The 4 Gospels:
1. (AD 50-60) Matthew was written by the Apostle Matthew and it relies heavily on quotations from the Old Testament. Matthew also had access to the temple records so as to record the genealogy of Jesus Christ.
2. (AD 69) The gospel of John Mark largely consists of the preaching of Peter which was arranged and shaped by the scribe John Mark.
3. (AD 70-80’s) Luke the church historian with access to the best information and many living witnesses also wrote down an orderly account.
4. (AD 50-80s)- John was written by the Apostle John and describes many eyewitness encounters with Jesus.
These four distinct gospels although written separately are all in “agreement” .
“The Gospel writers walked and talked with Jesus for three years.”
I do not find it surprising that some stories intersect in a variety of ways because they were all eye witness to the same events.
In the old Testament it was not sufficient to have only one witness give testimony. For instance in Criminal cases:”
compare matthew 12:15-16 to mark 3:7-12
who COPIED who?
3:7 Jesus withdrew to the sea with His disciples; and a great multitude from Galilee followed; and also from Judea,
3:8 and from Jerusalem, and from Idumea, and beyond the Jordan, and the vicinity of Tyre and Sidon, a great number of people heard of all that He was doing and came to Him.
3:9 And He told His disciples that a boat should stand ready for Him because of the crowd, so that they would not crowd Him;
3:10 for He had healed many, with the result that all those who had afflictions pressed around Him in order to touch Him.
3:11 Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down before Him and shout, “You are the Son of God!”
3:12 And He earnestly warned them not to tell who He was.
unclean spirits saw jesus. the “them” REFERS to unclean spirits. it is the unclean spirits who receive a warning.
i quote this:
“Mark 3:12 tu es Filius Dei et vehementer comminabatur eis ne manifestarent illum (Vulgate)
Here he expressed the Greek word ἐπετίμα (epetima) as comminabatur, which captures the forcefulness of Jesus’ words. He didn’t just warn them ; he threatened (with consequences) or menaced them. These are not the words of a gentle physician who shies away from the public spotlight.”
so jesus uses a threatening word to silence the unclean spirits.
NOW we look at matthew
12:15a But Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. Many followed Him,
12:15b and He healed them all,
12:16 and warned them not to tell who He was.
in verse 12:16 matthew uses the SAME word mark uses in 3:12 above.
by omitting the other verses in mark , matthew has his jesus heal people and then Threaten them. we just saw that in mark, the unclean spirits recognize who jesus was and jesus told them not to tell WHO he was. note that he did not TELL the PEOPLE to tell what he DID , he told the unclean spirits not to tell WHO he was.
this indicates the people did not KNOW WHO he was.
mark’s demons know the true identity of jesus and were ordered to shut up/threatened when they shouted out, “son of god”
matthew takes the exact word from mark and has his jesus THREATEN the crowds.
we know this was a CLUMSY move by matthew because after verse 12:16 , matthew QUOTES from the ot
“Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles. He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets; a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; and in his name the Gentiles will hope.”
(Matt. 12:17-21, ESV)
“Matthew himself recognized the abrupt and unexpected shift in mood — i.e., showing mercy and love by healing, followed by threats to keep quiet — and explained it by quoting Scripture.”
matthew READ mark and saw mood swings. he made the clumsy mistake by including a word in 12:16 he shouldn’t have included.
luke says that he read what other people WROTE:
“1Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us…”
now look at how luke fixes the problem in mark and matthew
17He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coastal region around Tyre and Sidon, 18who had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases. Those troubled by impure spirits were cured, 19and the people all tried to touch him, because power was coming from him and healing them all.
so one can see that luke has omitted the troubling parts.
this is JUST ONE example.
now look at how matthew and luke has USED mark
“2. (AD 69) The gospel of John Mark largely consists of the preaching of Peter which was arranged and shaped by the scribe John Mark.”
so why did matthew add many jewish elements to mark when john mark “largely consists of the preaching of peter” ?
Thanks for the very cool comparison. I seriously see no problem here. Mark/Peter reported that when Jesus healed the sick the demons would cry out “You are the Son of God” at the moment the possessed person was healed.
Matthew identified an event:
Mt 12:2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
Peter identified the same event:
Mk 2:24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”
After reading each book separately or side-by-side the meaning is still crystal clear as to the circumstances and the outcome.
As for the reason of having multiple authors give testimony to the same event this is to fulfill Deuteronomy –
Dt 19:15 … A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses
Rather than who copied whom the Apostles wrote down unique gospels, probably in different years and different locations as the Holy Spirit directed. The BIBLE is unbreakable because the source authorship was breathed through the Apostles of Jesus Christ by the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
“Thanks for the very cool comparison. I seriously see no problem here. Mark/Peter reported that when Jesus healed the sick the demons would cry out “You are the Son of God” at the moment the possessed person was healed.”
1. demons know the identity of jesus (mark)
those healed do NOT know. (mark)
MATTHEW COPIES AND HEAVILY EDITS mark
matthew KNOWS that the “who” in
mark
3:12 And He earnestly warned them not to tell who He was.
refers to the DIRTY spirits.
matthew OMITS
MARK
3:11 Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down before Him and shout, “You are the Son of God!”
matthew KNOWS that mark’s greek says that jesus THREATENED the DIRTY spirits
jerome knows this too
“Mark 3:12 tu es Filius Dei et vehementer comminabatur eis ne manifestarent illum (Vulgate)
Here he expressed the Greek word ἐπετίμα (epetima) as comminabatur, which captures the forcefulness of Jesus’ words. He didn’t just warn them (either the demons or the people); he threatened (with consequences) or menaced them. These are not the words of a gentle physician who shies away from the public spotlight.”
so matthew , by OMITTING mark 3:11 gave the impression that he , jesus, is THREATENING those he healed, but LOOK carefully
, matthew made a CLUMSY misTAKE
AFTER matthew 12:16
matthew quotes
“Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles. He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets; a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; and in his name the Gentiles will hope.”
(Matt. 12:17-21, ESV)
so he (matthew)knows that his jc WAS NOT threatening the healed ones , but the dirty spirits .
by matthew OMITTING mark 3:11 , one would assume that jc THREATENED /forced to shut up the ones who were HEALED.
but matthew MADE A CLUMSY MISTAKE in his COPYING .
“eye witness” matthew dropped out an important verse .
I think your analysis of Mark is spot on.
I can see a few tasks that Matthew had in writing his gospel:
– possibly used the Temple records to complete the genealogy of Jesus (the14 generations from the exile to the Christ)
– made numerous Old Testament quotations and translated them into Greek
– incorporated his own eyewitness testimony
Matthew seems to focus on the fulfillment of scripture describing the nature of Jesus. Jesus healed “all their sick” of those people who followed Jesus. This would include other illnesses besides demon possession. This would imply that those who did not follow Jesus were left uncured of their diseases.
Did you know that the nations have already put their hope in the name of Jesus?
Mt 12:21 In his name the nations will put their hope
“Did you know that the nations have already put their hope in the name of Jesus?
Mt 12:21 In his name the nations will put their hope”
pagans and christians have been putting thier trust in flesh gods , animals, celestial bodies, spirits and man made idols for thousands of years. the idolater thinks god CREATED the big ball of light and hid himself in it.
your god CREATED flesh for himself and HID in it.
the sun /giant ball of light gives you light and feeds your food, your god had to get fed.
you would bow before and CALL out to FINITE being.
just imagine yourself as an israeli in 1st century israel and screaming out your god’s name while he was occupied with the call of nature.
would you admit you CALLED out to a BEING who was finite considering the fact that god had to disable his attributes when he ENTERED finite EXISTENCE?
just think about it.
you are in church calling out to a god PINNED to a cross. yoU, in your mind , have an idea that this person you CALL out to WAS a human who had CREATED flesh. you know that his name “jesus” belonged to OTHER people in his day.
imagine you european christians going back to 1st century israel and calling out to your god . those named jesus thOUGHT to themselves , ” what are these blasphemers doing?”
there is no salvation in jesus or his flesh.
THE jew says
God is accessible to all who seek Him in sincerity (Psalm 145:18)
there is no bloody and violent go between.
god in his infinite POWER can communicate with the finite .
to say that one needs a bloody go between means that god’s power is activated only THROUGH a bloody go between.
how many people ,IN jesus’ day , “put trust in his name?”
in response to Jesus’ questions to his disciples about what people make of him (as portrayed, e.g., in Mark 8:27-30), the options reported are “John the Baptist” (which I take as meaning “another one like John”), Elijah (possibly in part because Jesus’ reported miracles often mirror those attributed to Elijah),”one of the prophets” (the opinion that Jesus was a “prophet” is reported elsewhere in the Gospels also, e.g., John 6:14; and 7:25-30 where people wonder if he is Messiah). And the disciples’ response (on Peter’s lips) was “Messiah/Christ”. There is no statement of deification, no “cultic” worship offered, and Jesus doesn’t demand it, or claim divinity.
Re #1: “pagans and christians have been putting thier trust in flesh gods , animals, celestial bodies, spirits and man made idols for thousands of years. the idolater thinks god CREATED the big ball of light and hid himself in it. your god CREATED flesh for himself and HID in it.
the sun /giant ball of light gives you light and feeds your food, your god had to get fed.
you would bow before and CALL out to FINITE being.
Dt 4:19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.
Re #2: “would you admit you CALLED out to a BEING who was finite considering the fact that god had to disable his attributes when he ENTERED finite EXISTENCE?”
Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness.
Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!
Re #3: “You are in church calling out to a god PINNED to a cross.”
Heb 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
Re #4: “THE jew says God is accessible to all who seek Him in sincerity (Psalm 145:18) there is no bloody and violent go between.”
Ps 145:18 The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.
Jn 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Re #5 : “to say that one needs a bloody go between means that god’s power is activated only THROUGH a bloody go between.”
Ro 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
Ro 3:26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Re #6 “how many people ,IN jesus’ day , “put trust in his name?”
On the day of Pentecost Peter preached –
Ac 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
“This would imply that those who did not follow Jesus were left uncured of their diseases.”
you still don’t seem to understand the problem.
“Ro 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
Ro 3:26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”
“through his blood”
you have LIMITED god’s INFINITE mercy, which is PART of him, to CREATED BLOOD AND flesh. God is GREAT .He sees His mercy and ‘pays’ for sins THROUGH his UNLIMITED mercy. jesus was LIMITED and had to achieve something, GOD does not ACHIEVE anything.
why can’t you see that BLOOD is CREATED and has NO infinite value? what would you achieve if you slaughtered a lamb and powdered it’s blood on your face? a USELESS and pagan act, right? so why are you having a relationship with god through BARRIER /bloody go between?
is your god so POWERLESS that he can only see his JUSTICE when he punishes his CREATED flesh? how does CREATED flesh have relation with his bodiless spirit? WHY does god need to SUFFER when he can CLEANSE the sinner through His own punishment? or do you believe god DOES NOT HAVE THE power to CLEANSE the sinner through His punishment? does god’s JUSTICE require that INFINITE BEING must SUFFER ?
jesus’ BLOOD created. jesus’ ACTIONS created
GOD uncreated. MERCY OF GOD UNCREATED.
even if ALL humanity were SINLESS it would still not OUT RANK GOD’S infinite mercy.
you can like the pagans, pray through CREATED blood, we ask of God’s MERCY because it is PART of Him.
“Re #6 “how many people ,IN jesus’ day , “put trust in his name?”
On the day of Pentecost Peter preached –
Ac 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.”
maybe you have a deep blindness in your heart? people in your god’s DAY were asked what they THOUGHT of jesus. the PEOPLE thought your god COULD APPEAR as john the baptist, elijah or a annointed leader, but none of them thought god APPEARED as a man. WHY could they think elijah TOOK on a NEW face, but didn’t think god took on a NEW face. you are burning in your IGNORANCE.
further
your quote does NOT say anyone turned to flesh and blood of your god in flesh.
there are more problems , i quote:
Paul, writing first about them, claims Christ appeared to more than five hundred at the same time. (1 Cor. 15:6) Matthew admits that some actually saw this resurrected person but doubted. (Mt. 28:17) Doubted about whether it was he, whether he had died, or whether it was a vision or not is unclear. The author of Acts, writing last, concedes within a few months of this appearance, there were only 120. (Acts 1:15)
Simple math tells us 500 seeing –120 believers = 380 believers that doubted! In other words, on this argument, 3 out of 4 believers would not die for the lie—they did not believe in a physical resurrection!
some translations
“Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, those possessed fell down before Him and cried out…”
“And whenever those possessed by evil spirits caught sight of him, the spirits would throw them to the ground in front of him shrieking…”
“And those who had plagues from foul spirits, when they saw him, they were falling down and they were crying out and they were saying…”
NOTE this does NOT imply that those POSSESSED HAD thier HUMAN senses working.
let’s look @ the NEXT verse
“But Jesus sternly commanded the spirits not to reveal who he was.”
obviously “son of god” would be “who he was.”
“But he sternly ordered them again and again not to tell people who he was.”
this translation is CONVEYING the force of the THREAT when SHUTTING up the ‘DIRTY ONES.’
“But He many a time checked them, forbidding them to say who He was.”
NOW LOOK AT matthew’s CLUMSY mistake
12:15a But Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. Many followed Him,
12:15b and He healed them all,
12:16 and warned them not to tell who He was.
you must ADMIT he done a POOR job of COPYING , right?
he BADLY edits mark’s work.
then he QUOTES
This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah:
“Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles. He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets; a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; and in his name the Gentiles will hope.”
(Matt. 12:17-21, ESV)
i think you will see the POINT when i ADD in the MISSING verse FROM mark
matthew
12:15a But Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. Many followed Him,
matthew
12:15b and He healed them all,
ADDING in VERSE which DOES NOT EXIST in matthew
3:11 Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down before Him and shout…”
MATTHEW
12:16 and warned them not to tell who He was.
. u see the POINT i am trying to make?
“I then collect four papers, at random, and tell everyone that we are going to do a synoptic comparison. And I read, one by one, each paper, asking everyone else if anyone has a *single sentence* that is just like one of the four. The four are always completely different. And no one – ever, in my 30 years of teaching – has a sentence (or even four or five words in sequence) the same as any of the four.
Then I ask them what they would think if I picked up four papers from the class, and two of them had an entire paragraph, word for word the same. What would they think then? And of course they say “Someone was cheating.” Yes, of course! Someone was copying someone else. But then I ask, what if I didn’t do this exercise today, but I waited forty, fifty, or sixty years, and I didn’t ask you, but I asked four people each of whom knew someone who had a cousin whose wife was next door neighbors with someone whose brother once knew someone in the class to write what happened that day – and they had entire sentences that were exactly alike, word for word?”
you READ the 2 paragraphs above and then you replied :
“The Gospel writers walked and talked with Jesus for three years. These men were recognized as Apostles and authorities of the things they spoke and wrote about. I do not find it surprising that some stories intersect in a variety of ways because they were all eye witness to the same events.”
now i am thinking even if it is worth continuing this discussion.
“His testimony is without merit because he was NOT an eyewitness and his own words accuse him.”
dan wallace is an evangelical scholar and dan wallace AGREES with ehrman
https://bible.org/article/synoptic-problem
Bart Erhman is NOT an Apostle and has NO AUTHORITY concerning the Word of God. The message of the Kingdom has not been entrusted into the hands of agnostic men.
Matthew, Peter and John were personally selected by Jesus to be Apostles and entrusted with the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM and their testimony is valid.
“The Bible was completed by the Apostles of Jesus Christ ”??? so the bible is not the word of god ??? or you lacking something and need to researched again and let us see just who were the true authors of the bible….
“The 4 Gospels:
1. (AD 50-60) Matthew was written by the Apostle Matthew and it relies heavily on quotations from the Old Testament.”
you can see that matthew copied from a text which predated him, but you can’t see matthew copying mark’s text?
more then 90 % of mark is in matthew WORD for word and in the SAME order.
matthew takes from the ot, WORD FOR WORD and in the same order.
NEARLY ALL experts ,except christians like yourself ,ACCEPT THE FACT THAT one synoptic WRITER IS COPYING another synoptic writer
what is interesting here is the pattern
matthew mark luke ——-> AGREEMENT
matthew mark x ——–> AGREEMENT AGAINST
x mark luke ————-> AGREEMENT AGAINST
1.so what do we see here? matthew and mark agree AGAINST luke’s account
2.mark and luke AGREE against matthews account
2. whenever matthew and luke DEPART from the markan accounts, they NEVER AGREE with each others ORDER AND SEQUENCE. there stories do not show AGREEMENT IN pattern.
there is hardly an instance where MATTHEW AND LUKE agree AGAINST mark
it is UNIVERSALLY an accepted fact that COPYING is going on in the synoptics.
mark is the narrative
Surely Matthew, one of the twelve, was relying on the Spirit because Jesus specifically promised that he would teach his disciples after the cross. The narrative therefore actually originates from the Holy Spirit sent by Jesus.
Jn 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you
In reliance upon the Holy Spirit, the Apostles, described uncannily similar details in their unique gospel accounts. The authority that Matthew had in writing his gospel did not come from Mark but rather by the power Jesus gave him to write and orderly and accurate account.
All the gospel writers agree that Jesus had the power to silence demons, to make the blind see, to make the deaf hear, to make the mute speak, to make whole those crippled, to cleanse lepers and heal disease, to forgive sin, to raise the dead, and to give eternal life to all who repent and call on his name as Savior and LORD.
Ac 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
MDI has erected a nice strawman. You’ve actually missed the “missionaries” points entirely.
First, nobody think M. was sitting there with an open Bible in front of him, copying stories. Rather, he heard these stories from the Jews and Xians he interacted with over the decades of travelling throughout the Levant and Arabia as a merchant. Can there be any doubt that he heard these stories, as a spiritual man interested in these things?
Second, the contents of the stories he’s using were in oral circulation long before the 7th century, as attested in midrashic accounts and by Nestorian Christians. Wikipedia has a lot of info on this, so I don’t need to repeat it.
He may have been sincere when repeating these stories in the Quran, wishing to emphasize the point that God is with those who submit. All of the Quranic stories seem more like settings, without many details, in order to deliver a lesson: believe in Allah or face the fire of men and stones. Pretty much every story in the Quran repeats this theme, dozens of times.
The quran and the bible are not of the same author because the theology is as day and night. It is untrue to say they have the same author.