Rabbi Michael Skobac takes us on a fascinating exploration of how a small Messianic movement within Judaism, 2,000 years ago, transformed into a radically non-Jewish world religion. In this lecture, we learn about the Jewish roots of Christianity, and how those roots became obscured over the course of time.
Categories: Christianity, Judaism
The Muslim Debate Initiative 
This is brilliant, and shows why Jews were for so long forbidden to argue against Christian doctrine and practice, on pain of death.
Good lecture, each and every point is valid.
I just want to say about the Noahide laws that Muslims follow them, it is the Christians who do not, by disobeying the first commandment ‘prohibition of idolatry’ by taking Jesus as God. If they stop this then the world will have so many people believing and worshiping the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus.
I don’t think we should bash the Christians like this.
Firstly, many educated Christians do not worship Jesus. Some of them are even Bishops 🙂
Secondly, the prohibition on idolatry is transgressed by many non-Christians who worship their gods of money, sex and power – & some are even Muslims!
A while back, probably about eight years ago, I bought a cassette tape of a lecture from the Jews for Judaism website. I don’t remember a lot about the lecture, but I do remember that at one point, the Jewish lecturer mocked Evangelical pastors. That should say something – the only thing that stuck with me was that arrogance, that smug, dismissive mockery of the dumb Christians.
Rabbi Skobac, however, gets it all right. He delivers the best presentation that a Jew could possibly give on the topic, in my opinion, in order to be able to be heard by Christians as well as curious Jews: he is respectful in his attitude toward contemporary Christians, he is respectful in his attitude toward Jesus (pbuh), and he methodically builds his case almost entirely from sources that all mainstream Christians will accept; in fact, most of it is straight from the Bible. He doesn’t resort to the Talmud, or the Jesus Seminar, or secular historians.
I’ve heard a lot of Jewish apologists talk about Christianity while seemingly knowing and understanding relatively little about it, so I began watching this video with some trepidation. I’m hyper-sensitive to folks “getting it wrong” when speaking about other people’s faiths, but my jaw never clenched while watching/listening to this today. In fact, I came away feeling confirmed in all the reasons I left Christianity while retaining my positive feelings toward Jesus (pbuh).
You keep parading the Jews in front of our noses but you seem to forget that they rejected, and still reject, Mohammed as a prophet.
Why, do ‘the Jews’ repulse you madmanna? There is an unpleasant odour of anti-Semitism about your comment!
You seem to forget that Ashmat (an MDI writer) is Jewish and he accepts Muhammad as the last prophet of God.
I wish someone would text me the next time there’s a Jewish parade. That must be a sight.
lol!
You keep parading the non-belief of the Jews in front of our noses. You seem to forget that they rejected, and still reject, Mohammed’s claim to be a prophet.
Madmanna, Rabbi Michael Skobac presents historical evidence from the Bible of how a small Messianic movement within Judaism, 2,000 years ago, transformed into a radically non-Jewish world religion. He talks about the Jewish (!) roots of Christianity, and how those roots became obscured over the course of time.
Do you have any reasoned comments to make about his analysis? Or will you just repeat age-old criticisms of ‘the Jews’?
Madmanna, you seem to be missing the entire point of this post. In this video, the people most knowledgeable about the Scriptures upon which Christianity relies for its claims about the Deity of Jesus provide a very thorough refutation of Christianity.
You should feel free to debate (there’s that word again) the points made in the video if you can. That’s the point of the Muslim DEBATE Initiative.
Whether or not Jews reject the Prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) has no bearing on arguments they make regarding the alleged Godhood of Jesus (pbuh). In fact, Jews have written books acknowledging that Jesus could have been considered a Prophet similar to Jeremiah (pbuh) and Isaiah (pbuh), etc. Christianity explicitly relies upon the Jewish Scriptures, so the Jewish Scriptures are vital to the Christian belief in the Godhood of Jesus (pbuh), while the Qur’an does not rely upon Jewish authority for its reliability
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
Excellent point br. Ashmath.
Exactly, Christianity relies for its claims about the Deity of Jesus upon the Jewish Bible while the Qur’an does not rely upon Jewish authority for its reliability.
Why these Christians critics miss the point ? could be they have no answer to the Rabbi except scriptural twisting and super innovative theological mumbo jumbo.
While Christianity claim exclusivity to Salvation that only those who accept Jesus as being God who was dead on the cross will be saved, the Quran teach that the religion of the Jews and the teaching of Jesus Christ have been superseded, but have not become invalid.
The Quran says:-
“Verily, whether it be of those who believe, or those who are Jews or Christians or Sabaeans, whosoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and acts aright, they have their reward with their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.” 2:62
“Unto every nation have We given sacred rites which they are to perform; so let them not then dispute about the matter, but summon thou unto thy Lord; verily, thou (Muhammad) indeed followest right guidance.” 22:67
“And unto thee (Muhammad) have We revealed the Book in truth, verifying what was before it, and preserving it. Judge then between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their lusts (prejudices, fantasies), turning away from what is given to thee of the truth. For each of you have We appointed a Law and a traced out Path. Had Allah pleased He would have made you one nation, but that He may try you by that which He has given you. Therefore, vie with one another in virtue. Unto Allah will you all return, and He will then inform you concerning that wherein ye dispute.” 5:48
“To every people was sent a Messenger; and when their Messenger comes to them (on the Day of Judgment), it will be judged between them fairly, and they will not be wronged.” 10:48
The Quran does not condemn the original teaching of the founders of the past revelation (Judaism and genuine “Christianity” (i.e. the Prophets who bring the Word of God ) but the * misinterpretations and corruption* of religion by humans and the church fathers.
Wassalam
I don’t know if you can get lower than loving the so-called prophet that tried to annihilate your own people. A prophet who said in his book that he will always be an enemy of the Jews.
‘A prophet who said in his book that he will always be an enemy of the Jews.’
Really? Please cite the reference. Btw I notice you have changed the subject to attack Islam.
*
Madmanna, the Rabbi presents historical evidence from the Bible of how a small Messianic movement within Judaism got transformed into a radically non-Jewish world religion. He talks about the Jewish roots of Christianity, and how those roots became obscured over the course of time.
Do you have any reasoned comments to make about his analysis?
Salaam Madmanna. You seem to be continuing the most common tactic of the Christians who say bad things about Islam: a drive-by slam in which you make an outrageous negative statement about Islam, the Qur’an, and/or the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and then, when asked to substantiate your claim, you just change the subject.
So…
1. It seems that you are saying that Prophet Muhammad “tried to annihilate” the Jewish people, so I’d like you to substantiate that.
You also seem to be saying that the Qur’an states that Muhammad “will always be an enemy of the Jews.” Please substantiate that as well.
You seem to be having a difficult time with the concept of “debate” which is, after all, in this organization’s name. It involved reasoned discussion with references, making rational arguments which you can support with facts – and actually providing those supporting facts.
Instead, you seem to be trying to convince me of the superiority of Christianity by telling me that someone can’t get “lower” than me. Not very effective.
LOL. I can see why you guys love this lecture appeals to you: it blames Paul for everything that went wrong with the Messianic Jewish Movement.
Do you think there is a measure of historical truth to the Rabbi’s arguments?
If there is a measure of historical proof to Rabbi Skobach’s arguments, then its his job to provide that evidence. Did you see that evidence?
yes I did see the evidence. The Rabbi appealed to the Bible (the Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible) and the writings of the early church fathers. They are all available on-line for us to read.
Paul I saw nothing but misrepresentations from the Bible (Both Tanakh and Brit haChadasha) and sheer speculations on the part of the Rabbi. Please give some specific examples so we can deal with them and see how supposedly solid the evidence is from the Bible.
It’s a very long lecture and I agree with virtually everything said by the rabbi. As you think he is distorting everything why don’t you tell us what is so wrong and select an example?
Why dont we take his example of Paul being at odds with the “Jerusalem Church” and his appeal to Acts 21. What Skobach highlighted is what Paul was accused of, but he totally ignored the way James told Paul to acquit himself:
Acts 21:24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.
Not only did Paul demonstrate his innocence and James believed in his innocence as well, but Skobach also ignored the following:
Acts 21: 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard this, they praised God…
Thus they also supported Paul in his ministry and backed him the total 100%, praising God for what Paul was achieving amongst the Gentiles. So how on earth do you think that Skobach has any “evidence” as to his argument that Paul was at odds with James and the Jerusalem Church?
Salaam Ashmath,
Perhaps I did overstate my case slightly. Instead of using the word annihilate I should have used the word decimate instead.
It’s clear to anyone who has read the Koran that Mohammed demonized the Jews collectively and thus made them his perpetual enemies and the perpetual enemies of Islam.
How many Jews are in the Arabian Peninsula now?
The Jews for Judaism rabbi makes his case by selectively picking texts and taking them out of context and ignoring those that refute his arguments. For example Peter, a Jew, preached on the day of Pentecost:
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made this same Jesus, whom ye have crucified both Lord and Christ….Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”
The rabbi ignores Paul’s own historical testimony in Galations:
“And when James, Cephas, and John , who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Only that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.”
If Paul’s gospel was his own invention and contrary to the belief of the Jerusalem church why was he sent out with their blessing and why did they give him the right hand of fellowship?
Then the rabbi brought up the old charge of antinomianism based on such passages as Rom 10 v 4 “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth”. Those who seek a legalistic way of earning their salvation will always bring up this charge against the gospel and the rabbi is no different. He then appealed to Luther who wanted to get rid of the book of James. I have never known a Christian who had a problem with the book of James being in the canon of the NT. Luther was wrong but somehow he has to be made the flagbearer for those who claim that Christians have a problem with the book of James.
Paul only taught that Christ was the end of the law as a means of obtaining justification before God. The apostles preached that by believing in Christ as the crucified and resurrected Messiah men would receive forgiveness of sins, and receive the Holy Spirit who empowers men to live holy lives according to the law. This was the fulfilment of the new covenant prophesied in Jeremiah and Ezekiel and the pouring out of the Spirit upon all flesh prophesied in Joel.
Madmanna, the word “telos” in Romans 10:4 doesnt even mean “end” as in it termination. It means “goal” and thus the verse really says “Christ is the GOAL of the Torah”. Since the goal of the Torah is the righteousness of God and the Torah points to Yeshua/Jesus, the Messiah is the GOAL of the Torah, bringing people to God’s righteousness.
These Muslims and Jews for Jesus guys need to step up their game!
Nakdimon I don’t agree that the Torah points to Jesus as the incarnate God/sent to die for our sins at all. The reasons why I do not agree are very ably outlined in the following lecture.
Paul so let me get this straight. Your objection to my point is “I dont agree with you, just watch this hour and a half video which says why I dont agree with you”? How I rebut you with a link to a Messianic Jewish website that demonstrates that Yeshua IS the incarnate God that the Torah points to? Would that do? Or I point you to Dr Michael Brown’s Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus Vol.3 that deals with Messianic prophecies and tell you to read that? While we’re at it, here is a video that demonstrates that Genesis 5 does indeed point to the incarnate God bringing redemption through his sufferings. It’s only 2 minutes, so if you expect me to watch an hour and a half lecture, you surely wouldnt object to a 2 minute video and respond to it, right?
Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSPHT2Srcho
Looking forward to your response.
Nakdimon
I really don’t have time to play games with you. You are welcome to listen to the lecture which in my view demonstrates with much erudition why there is absolutely no mention of God becoming a man and dying for the sins of the world in the Torah.
If you dont wan’t to watch it – fine. I’ll dialogue with someone else.
Wow, wait a second Paul. YOU, not me, are the one that responds with links/videos instead of laying your case forth. You want me to watch an hour and a half lecture to get to know why you dont agree with my assessment that Yeshua/Jesus is the goal of the Torah, but you claim you dont have the time to watch a two minute video that says the contrary? Talk about “playing games”!
In addition, I put forth one argument that your hero Skobach raised based on Acts 21, which demonstrates that Skobach’s points, which you agree with. are utterly false! You have yet to respond to it. So I guess you should make up your mind: Do you want have a dialogue where videos and links are used to refute each side, or do you want to deal with the subject at hand, namely, Skobach’s distortions of the Bible and give serious rebuttals to each point, starting with the above mentioned section on Acts 21?
Nakdimon
I have no time to play games with you. You are clearly not interested in serious discussion – just point scoring. Conversation over.
Nakdimon you said Genesis 5 point to incarnate God bringing redemption of the world .
Can you show me 1 verse in Genesis 5 which says this or can you show me any rabbinic commentaries or the Talmud which expands it to say that Genesis 5 points to future coming of God incarnate .
“Jesus”,
I put a link in there to support it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSPHT2Srcho
It’s a two minute video. Telling you exactly how Gen 5 teaches the incarnate God coming down and teaching that his death will giving us peace.
nakdimon the video what you asked me to see exactly represents the old saying , if one looks through a red glass everything looks red and if one looks through a blue glass everything looks blue
That video is indeed pathetic.
My question stands,show me 1 verse in Genesis 5 or the rabbinic commentaries on it or the Talmudic interpretations of it which say that Genesis 5 tells that God will incarnate one day and come to earth as a human being,you cant !
If you still think you have shown the same by appealing to the video ,then why are you stopping from Adam to Noah , continue further and see what is the hidden meaning from the genealogies from Adam to Abraham to Jesus Christ .
I will help you bro ,this is the genealogy from Abraham to Jesus Christ in Matthew 1 please see the hidden meaning in this and after you crack the hidden meaning please inform me too bro.
Matthew 1 genealogy
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Perez, Hezron, Ram, Amminadab, Nahshon. Salmon,Boaz , Obed ,Jesse,David, Solomon, Rehoboam ,Abijah , Asa,Jehoshaphat ,Jehoram ,Uzziah
Jotham ,Ahaz ,Hezekiah ,Manasseh ,Amon ,Josiah Jeconiah,Shealtiel, Shealtiel ,Zerubbabel, Abihud ,Eliakim ,Azor ,Zadok,Akim ,Elihud ,Eleazar,Matthan,Jacob,Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary the mother of Jesus.
“Jesus”
NO, you’re wrong. We don’t need rabbinic commentary to know what the Bible communicates. As if rabbinic commentary is the be all and end all of everything biblical. It has nothing to do with looking through blue or red glasses. The names mean what they mean. (unlike the fake “machamadim” argument Muslims like to cling on to when referring to Song of Songs 5:16). They all bear a meaning and putting them in the exact order as they appear the Gospel message is found in Genesis 5. No rabbinic commentary can change that. IF you want rabbinic commentary, according to rabbinic teachings, Jesus cannot be the promised Messiah. Well if he isn’t the promised Messiah then he is no Messiah at all and Islam is false, since it claims he is the Messiah!
So instead of trying to ridicule this argument, why don’t you try to refute it? I know Hebrew, I know these names bear the meanings attributed to them in the video. It’s your turn to try to rebut now based on the Hebrew text!
madmanna you refuted none what the rabbi said .Now the points what you brought ,
YOUS SAID
how many Jews live in Arabian peninsula now ?
ANSWER
More that that of Europe,where they used to live in good numbers but were massacred and thrown out by the Christ believing Christians
YOU SAID
Peter preached “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made this same Jesus, whom ye have crucified both Lord and Christ….Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”
ANSWER
Peter was preaching to Jews themselves in Jerusalem which in turn upholds the talk given by the Rabbi that Jesus and his disciples were all Jews and it was a movement within the Jews first . Interestingly Peter in the verse says “repent and be baptized” not that Jesus died for your sins and believe it and be baptized .
YOU SAID
The rabbi ignores Paul’s own historical testimony in Galatians
ANSWER
Paul’s testimony is doubted by scholars today as it is filed with contradictions and historical inaccuracies ,more confounding is the verse you cited itself ,in the verse Paul says that they (disciples) said him and Barnabas to go to the way of heathen .The problem here is Jesus never preached to the gentiles and he clearly said that he came only for the lost sheep of Israel ,his disciples never preached to the gentiles then why will they ask Paul to go to the way of gentiles?
NEXT POINT ROMANS 10:4
The word ‘telos’ means END OF GOAL ORIENTED PROCESS .Paul clearly taught that Christ is the end of law and not as a means of obtaining justification before God as you think .He clearly taught that the old testament laws have been done with and it is no more needed to obey it .
Jesus’ ANSWER
Peter was preaching to Jews themselves in Jerusalem which in turn upholds the talk given by the Rabbi that Jesus and his disciples were all Jews and it was a movement within the Jews first . Interestingly Peter in the verse says “repent and be baptized” not that Jesus died for your sins and believe it and be baptized .
MY REPLY:
YEP and the same Peter proclaimed Jesus to be the Lord of all creation and the Savior of the world. Also, Peter didn’t have to say “Jesus died for your sins and believe and be baptized”, the fact that he pointed to Yeshua/Jesus as their Lord and Savior, saying that in Jesus’ name only there is salvation, putting a nail in Islam’s coffin.
Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: IT IS BY THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ 12 SALVATION IS FOUND IN NO ONE ELSE, FOR THERE IS NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN TO MANKIND BY WHICH WE MUST BE SAVED.”
That same Peter also wrote Epistles where he lays it out quite clearly:
1 Peter 1: 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and SPRINKLED WITH HIS BLOOD… 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD,… 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 BUT WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST, A LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH OR DEFECT.
And I can go on citing Peter being ON PAR with Paul’s teachings even endorsing Paul’s teachings in 2 Peter 3:15 calling Paul “our dear brother”. Are you still going to contend that Skobac was right and claim that Paul taught different things than Peter?
Jesus’ ANSWER
Paul’s testimony is doubted by scholars today as it is filed with contradictions and historical inaccuracies ,more confounding is the verse you cited itself ,in the verse Paul says that they (disciples) said him and Barnabas to go to the way of heathen .The problem here is Jesus never preached to the gentiles and he clearly said that he came only for the lost sheep of Israel ,his disciples never preached to the gentiles then why will they ask Paul to go to the way of gentiles?
MY REPLY
Here again, you just cherry pick Yeshua’s/Jesus’ words and completely ignore anything else he said. While Yeshua said HE personally came to the house of Israel, meaning his ministry was limited to Israel, his Gospel was for the entire world, as we can see here:
Mark 14:9 I tell you the truth, wherever the gospel is preached THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached IN THE WHOLE WORLD as a testimony TO ALL NATIONS, and then the end will come.
Luke 24: 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name TO ALL NATIONS, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.”
How many more verses do you want to demonstrate that Paul was justified to go to the Gentiles to preach the Gospel? Also, you Muslims will appeal to the Gospel of Barnabas as being a legitimate source for Muhammad’s prophethood, yet here you claim that Barnabas erred for going to the Gentiles, not understanding Yeshua’s/Jesus’ words. The very words that you appeal to from the very disciple to support Muhammad’s prophetic claims! LOL! How desperate!
Jesus’NEXT POINT ROMANS 10:4
The word ‘telos’ means END OF GOAL ORIENTED PROCESS .Paul clearly taught that Christ is the end of law and not as a means of obtaining justification before God as you think .He clearly taught that the old testament laws have been done with and it is no more needed to obey it .
MY REPLY
Like I said, you Muslims need to step up your game! Paul “clearly”(???) taught that Yeshua ended the Torah not as means of obtaining justification before God? Really?
Let’s see what Paul himself says:
Romans 3: 31 Do we, then, nullify the Torah by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the Torah.
Romans 7: 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
1 Cor 7: 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.
On top of that, Paul preached constantly from the Torah and the prophets, quoting it extensively as a reference for his teachings. So I’m sorry to burst your bubble. Thus Paul’s teaching is that the Mashiach is the goal of the Torah, the Torah points to the righteousness of God in the Mashiach. But of course, you will only seek to create conflict between the Lord Yeshua and Paul, so you will refuse to except this reading.
nakdimon you have not burst my bubble ,each of my points what i said is true ,it is you who is cherry picking verses.
First let me show you that Paul indeed taught the end of law
ROMANS 7:1-7
“Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is Abolished from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been Abolished from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.””
Paul’s argument is that if the Laws are not abolished, then either we cannot be joined to Christ or we are guilty of adultery, just as a woman with two living husbands.
OTHER VERSES
Galatians 3:10— All who rely on observing the law are under a curse.
Galatians 3:13—Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,
Galatians 3:25—Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Galatians 5:1—It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Galatians 5:18—But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
Romans 2:12—All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
Romans 4:15—The law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
Romans 5: 13—Before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
Romans 6:14—Sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Romans 7:6– We are delivered from the law
Romans 7:8—Apart from law, sin is dead.
Romans 7:14-We are dead to the law
Romans 10:4 -Christ is the end of the law
Colossians 2:13-14—He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 2:16,17– Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days
Ephesians 2:15 -The law has been abolished
Scholars say that Romans,Galatians and Colossians was written by Paul to the respective populations and the main theme of these letters is the nullification of Jewish Laws .
nakdimon you appealed to the point that Paul was directed by Peter the disciple of Jesus.
Let us see whether this assumption of yours is right or not.
The assumption that peter the apostle of Jesus Christ directed Paul to preach to gentiles is refuted by the following verse from the Bible
Matthew 10:5-6 “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.”
If Jesus himself says to his disciples to go and preach in Israel and not to the gentiles then why will his disciples ask Paul to go and preach to the gentiles ?
Coming to your citation of epistles of Peter as a proof that Paul was sent himself by Peter ,this is what the scholars say about these epistles.
1 Peter
Despite 1 Pet 1:1, the author is unlikely to have been the apostle Peter. The cultured Greek of the epistle makes it perhaps the most literary composition in the NT. The apostle Peter probably knew some Greek, but 1 Peter does not look like the product of an unlettered (Acts 4:13) Galilean fisherman. It employs a sophisticated vocabulary and its author appears to have some command of the techniques of Hellenistic rhetoric. He is also intimately acquainted with the OT in the LXX, whereas we should have expected the Galilean Peter to have been more familiar with an Aramaic Targum or the Hebrew.”
I Peter contains no evidence at all of familiarity with the earthly Jesus, his life, his teaching, and his death, but makes reference only in a general way to the sufferings of Christ. It is scarcely conceivable that Peter would neither have sought to strengthen his authority by referring to his personal connections with Jesus nor have referred to the example of Jesus in some way.
Based on his command of the Greek language and his familiarity with the Greek Septuagint (LXX), the author of 1 Peter may have been a Jew of the Hellenistic diaspora.
2 Peter
More people have challenged 2 Peter as “authentic” than any other book of the New Testament. None of the early Fathers definitely quoted 2 Peter and it was not even mentioned in the second century.
2 Peter has a different style of writing than 1 Peter, but the same literary style as Jude. Most of 2 Peter and Jude are parallel, and 15 of 25 verses in Jude actually appear in 2 Peter. So the author of 2 Peter is most probably not the same person as the author of 1 Peter, but may be the same as the author of Jude.
As for 1 Peter, in many theological stances, it is considered so close to Pauline thought that some critics would put that writing in the Pauline rather than the Petrine school. Even if it was written early enough to come from Peter, this seems unlikely.
In summary, it seems that 1 Peter and 2 Peter were written by two different, anonymous authors probably quite separated in time. Neither author was the apostle Peter.
So nakdimon it was not Peter who was addressing Paul somebody else was and in no way it establishes that Paul was sent by Peter the disciple of Jesus himself.
“Jesus”
All that these verses communicate is that we are not justified by Torah, but by faith.
Romans 7: Paul’s entire argument is that we aren’t dependent on the Torah anymore for our salvation. Since the Messiah’s death is imputed to is, as is his resurrection, we are no longer under the scrutiny of the Torah, but saved by grace, through faith. Does that mean that the Torah is abolished? NO! Paul himself says it:
Romans 6: 1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
What do you think determines what SIN is according to Paul, given the fact that there was no “New Testament” in his days? The sole determining factor of sin in Paul’s days was the TANAKH, the Hebrew Bible! Therefore ignoring the Hebrew Bible is opening yourself up for sinning! Paul recognizes in Romans 7 that the Torah is “holy and righteous and good” (verse 12), Paul recognizes that by his sins he testifies that the law is GOOD (verse 16) and Paul recognizes that he is sinful but wants to do righteousness and thus struggles every day: He wants to do good, i.e. obeying the Torah, but his sinful nature makes him do bad, i.e. disobeying the Torah. Read the entire chapter! Paul doesn’t blame the Torah, be blames his wretched body that is subject to sin and makes him disobey God’s Torah to his condemnation. Which is why he asks “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (verse 24-25). THAT is what it means to “no longer [be] under the law” and also the analogy of the wife being bound to her husband as long as they are alive. We are no longer dependent on the Torah for our salvation, since we died with the Messiah and will be raised through him to eternal life. NO abolishing of the Torah, simply your fallacious readings. My explanation is in harmony with the verses from Paul that I quoted, while your explanation is in contradiction with those very same verses. You cannot explain Romans 7 in light of the verses I highlighted in my previous post. Paul’s argument is NOT that the Torah must be abolished so that we can be joined to the Messiah. It’s the exact other way around: Since WE died with Christ (i.e. his death is imputed to us), we are no longer subject to that husband (the Torah), since the Torah only speaks to the living, NOT the dead!
Same goes for Galatians: Paul’s sole argument is that those that seek their righteousness from the Torah, sever themselves from the Grace of Messiah, since they basically deny his atoning work thinking they can add to his perfect righteousness. Torah doesn’t save anyone from God’s judgment, since everyone has violated it. Rather, it condemns us! Which is exactly why the Lord Yeshua said “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.” (John 5:45) Hence, Paul was right, The Torah will only avail in God’s judgment if every single commandment is kept at all times. One slip means judgment based on the transgression of the Torah.
So like I said: Step up your game, son! Try again.
“Jesus”
Quoting Matthew 10:5-6 does not help you one bit. Yes, Yeshua/Jesus told his disciples not to go to the Gentiles but rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ON THAT PARTICULAR MISSION! I have already shown you verses where Yeshua later tells his disciples that they were his witnesses to the ends of the earth beginning at Jerusalem. Again, I can reconcile those verses with one another. YOU on the other hand cannot and insist on de-harmonize the words of the Scriptures instead of allowing a perfectly justified harmonization of those words. Yeshua says that the end will not come until the Gospel is a testimony to ALL NATIONS:
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached IN THE WHOLE WORLD as a testimony TO ALL NATIONS, and then the end will come.
How does this wash with your nonsensical cherry-picking where you insist that Yeshua forbade his disciples to ever go to anyone else except Israel? Before the Lord Yeshua departed from this earth he gave his disciples a commission to “go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS” (Matthew 28:19)
It’s really not serving you to appeal to the Bible while the same Bible lays out even more clearly than ANYTHING in your Quran or Hadith how the disciples were commissioned to go to the Gentiles, How the Lord Yeshua appeared to Paul, how the Lord Yeshua commanded Paul to go to the Gentiles and how Paul was commended with his work amongst the Gentiles by James, the brother of the Lord! Yet you claim that Skobac did a great job by demonstrating how Paul was a renegade apostle that usurped all the power of the early believers, the very disciples of the Lord Yeshua, without providing a STITCH of evidence for his speculative assertions.
As for the nonsense about Peter. Yeah, Liberals will claim Peter didn’t write the Epistle because he supposedly didn’t speak Greek on that level. Yet there are many others out there that debunk this Liberal nonsense by stating that there is not a stitch of evidence that Peter couldn’t have spoken Greek on that level and also that, should the Liberals have been right, Peter may likely have had a secretary/scribe that translated his Aramaic speech into Greek. Of course there is also the factor of the inspiration Peter received, which Liberals would deny, ergo, Peter supposedly couldn’t have written it. Just pathetic arguments. Since you cannot deal with the text at hand, you seek to undermine its authenticity!
Nakdimon you are probably not reading what iam posting,your take on Matthew 10 is not scriptural.
Lets see Matthew 10 : verses 1, 5 ,6, 7 and 8
1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’
8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
Jesus Christ called his disciples and asked them to preach about the kingdom of God only to the lost sheep of Israel .
You said Jesus send his disciples to lost sheep on that particular mission,this is your own take on it ,verse 5 clearly says “do not go among the gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.”
Your whole contention of Jesus directing his disciples to preach the gospel of kingdom of God to the gentiles falls by verse 7 where Jesus himself says to proclaim the message of kingdom of God to only lost sheep of Israel not to gentiles.
The verses which you quoted to me previously none show Jesus directed his disciples to preach in the gentiles
Let us see them one by one
Mark 14:9 “Truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”
In this verse Jesus is rebuking people for blaming the woman who poured perfume over his head by saying them that she will be remembered wherever the gospel is preached.In this verse Jesus does not ask his disciples to preach the gospel through out the world .
Matthew 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”
Jesus here is saying that the gospel of kingdom will be preached to all nations before the end.Again Jesus does not ask his disciples to preach gospel to all nations in this verse.
Luke 24:46-47 “He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
This verse is very revealing ,here Jesus appears to the disciples after resurrection and tells them,it is written that the repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations beginning at Jerusalem.Point to note is he never asks them to do that !
You also quoted Matthew 28:19 ,do you know it is a forgery ! .You quoted a forged verse to me and is driving your point on that .
Coming on to epistles of Peter you say it is nonsense .It is not nonsense ,it is a fact upheld by Biblical scholars not by me . Moreover Iam not arguing the authenticity of text ,iam driving the point that it was not Peter who was addressing Paul somebody else was and in no way it establishes that Paul was sent by Peter the disciple of Jesus himself.
Coming on to the view of Paul on mosaic law ,each and every verse which i quoted answers on itself what did Paul thought about the mosaic law .It is you who just doesn’t want to give up and i still clinging to the false view that Paul upheld the mosaic law.
It is again not my view ,it is the view of scholars that they were 2 groups after Jesus one the Essene group and another Pauline group with both having different views on the basic theology .Scholars say that the letters of Paul reflect the differences between them on those basic issues.
Scholars agree that Pauline view on theology was different from the Essene view in that it undermined the mosaic laws.
Iam not saying anything of my own iam just saying what the scholars on this field usually say.
Jesus’ claim: Nakdimon you are probably not reading what iam posting,your take on Matthew 10 is not scriptural.
MY REPLY:
You have GOT to be kidding me!
Jesus’ claim:
Lets see Matthew 10 : verses 1, 5 ,6, 7 and 8
1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’
8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
Jesus Christ called his disciples and asked them to preach about the kingdom of God only to the lost sheep of Israel .
You said Jesus send his disciples to lost sheep on that particular mission,this is your own take on it ,verse 5 clearly says “do not go among the gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.”
Your whole contention of Jesus directing his disciples to preach the gospel of kingdom of God to the gentiles falls by verse 7 where Jesus himself says to proclaim the message of kingdom of God to only lost sheep of Israel not to gentiles.
MY REPLY:
YEP, ON THAT PARTICULAR MISSION, since later he DOES remove the restriction to preach the Gospel to Israel, which we will shortly see.
The verses which you quoted to me previously none show Jesus directed his disciples to preach in the gentiles
Let us see them one by one
Mark 14:9 “Truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”
In this verse Jesus is rebuking people for blaming the woman who poured perfume over his head by saying them that she will be remembered wherever the gospel is preached.In this verse Jesus does not ask his disciples to preach the gospel through out the world .
MY REPLY:
Again: You have GOT to be kidding me! It is funny how you Muslims want word for word proclamations when it comes to the words of the Lord Yeshua communicating things that destroy your case, in order to avoid the obvious, namely, that taking the text at face value, you are clearly wrong. However, I can play that game too: Jesus, in Matthew 10 doesn’t tell his disciples to NEVER go to the gentiles and Samaritans. Therefore, since you want specific words word-for-word, your reading of Matthew 10 is not scriptural. See how absolutely absurd the position is that you’re taking? Looking at Mark 14:9, obviously the intention of the Lord Yeshua’s words is that the Gospel WILL go throughout the world! Since his disciples were direct witnesses of his ministry, they are to proclaim it, as we will see shortly. You want to play games, here is a pop-quiz: Since the Lord Yeshua says the Gospel WILL be preached throughout the world, who were supposed to get it there, IF NOT FOR HIS DISCIPLES?
Jesus’ claim: Matthew 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”
Jesus here is saying that the gospel of kingdom will be preached to all nations before the end.Again Jesus does not ask his disciples to preach gospel to all nations in this verse.
MY REPLY:
OK so here, again, we have the intention of the Lord Yeshua for the Gospel to go beyond Israel and into the whole world. Question: Who do you think he had in mind for the preaching to the whole word as a testimony to all nations? A testimony BY WHOM, IF NOT BY HIS DISCIPLES?
Jesus’ claim:
Luke 24:46-47 “He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
This verse is very revealing ,here Jesus appears to the disciples after resurrection and tells them,it is written that the repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations beginning at Jerusalem.Point to note is he never asks them to do that !
MY REPLY:
HAHAHAHHA! If it wasn’t so disturbingly deceptive I would cry. It’s truly amazing how far you will go in order to avoid having to admit error. If it is prophetically proclaimed in the scriptures that all nations will hear the Gospel of the Lord Yeshua, then who do you think the Lord Yeshua had in mind for that task, OTHER THAN HIS DISCIPLES?? And if the Gospel being preached to all nations is WRITTEN IN THE SCRIPTURES, then how is my take on Matthew 10 “not scriptural”? LOL
Jesus’ claim:
You also quoted Matthew 28:19 ,do you know it is a forgery ! .You quoted a forged verse to me and is driving your point on that .
MY REPLY:
Ok here is the familiar Muslim mantra: “if the text is too difficult for you to handle, just claim its forged! That will show those pesky Christians!” Dude, can you show me ONE scholar that doesn’t just CLAIM that it’s a forgery, but actually has ANY manuscript evidence to go along with his claim to support it? JUST ONE! Fact of the matter is that ALL Greek manuscripts known to mankind of Matthew 28 have verse 19 in it exactly as we read it above, which means that as far as manuscript evidence goes, this text is airtight, undisputable and undeniably authentic! Therefore you have to deal with this verse: The Lord Yeshua commands his disciples to go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, teaching them everything he told them. Which puts another nail in Islam’s coffin and in your silly argument that my take on Matthew 10 “is not scriptural”.
I also quoted Acts 1:8 where Yeshua tells his disciples “and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.” Which you conveniently deleted from the list of verses I quoted, since it destroys your case of the Lord Yeshua not asking his disciples to go to the gentiles. Who did you say was telling “open lies” and twisting scripture, again?
Jesus’ claim:
Coming on to epistles of Peter you say it is nonsense .It is not nonsense ,it is a fact upheld by Biblical scholars not by me . Moreover Iam not arguing the authenticity of text ,iam driving the point that it was not Peter who was addressing Paul somebody else was and in no way it establishes that Paul was sent by Peter the disciple of Jesus himself.
MY REPLY:
Like I said, Liberal scholars, who don’t even believe in the inspiration of the scriptures to begin with, will claim that the epistles of Peter weren’t written by Peter. But they all do so by postulating all kinds of theories that are easily debunked and countered by Conservative, true Bible believing scholars. There is no valid and unbiased reason why one should think that the epistles of Peter weren’t written or dictated by Peter. If you are going to contend that Peter didn’t sent Paul while the very scriptures that are the ONLY source of all knowledge you have of those men says that Peter DID sent Paul, then I suggest you start providing evidence to go along with it, and not empty rhetoric and fancy assumptions that are in direct conflict with the written testimonies from the first century.
Cmon, bruh… step it up a notch already! Or another alternative is to quit while you’re still not too far behind.
Your constant appeal to scholars without citing any reference or telling us who those scholars are so we can check them is pretty annoying. I can claim scholars till the cows come home without sharing any source and claim I’m refuting you as well.
If there are two ways of reading Paul, one which is in harmony with the rest of scripture and one which is contrary to the rest of scripture, which reading do you think is the valid one? If there are two ways to read an author (presuming that an author writing a message would seek to be consistent with his own words), one reading is contradictory to his own words (which is your reading) and the other reading is a harmonized reading with the rest of that author’s writings (which is my reading), which do you think is the valid reading and which reading should be dropped?
Obviously, if it would come to the Quran and Hadith and these criteria would be applied to those writings you would immediately and without hesitation insist upon applying the harmonized readings of those sources. And you would insist on all those that read these sources to regard them as being consistent with themselves. But for some odd reason, when it comes to the Bible all that gets fed to the sharks and no longer applies, you do a 180 and insist on the contradictory reading, preferring it above the harmonized reading. I wonder why that would be…
Question: Would you want everyone to regard the Quran and Sunna as consistent with themselves and prefer harmonizations over contradictory readings and why?
Nakdimon a pattern is being developed here ,you are repeating yourself and is starting to be sarcastic.
Coming on to Matthew 10 ,Jesus never said ‘only for this misssion do not go to the gentiles’ ,it is clearly your take on it
In verse 7 Jesus clearly says “go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’”
The message or good news about the coming of kingdom of heaven is the gospel of Christ .This verse clearly makes it clear that Jesus asked his disciples not to preach the gospel to the gentiles.
Coming on to Mark 14:9 ; Matthew 24:14 and Luke 24:46-47 ,the verses are obivios in that Jesus never asked his disciples to preach the gospel throught the world .
The verse Mark 14:9 says the woman who poured perfume on Jesus head will be remembered wherever the gospel is preached.
The verse Matthew 24:14 says gospel will be preached to all nations before the end of the world.
In verses of Luke 24:46-47 Jesus says repantance for forgiveness of sin will be preached in his name to all nations beginning from Jerusalem
Coming on to your question ‘since the Lord Yeshua says the Gospel will be preached throughout the world, who were supposed to get it there, IF NOT FOR HIS DISCIPLES?
ANSWER 1)
Had Jesus been telling his disciples to preach the gospel to the world , then the end of world should have come as they have preached the gospel long before .
ANSWER 2)
Matthew 10:23 “Truly I tell you ,you will not finish going the towns of Israel before the son of man comes” .Jesus clearly says here that before the disciples finish preaching in Jerusalem he will come back ,now what about preaching to gentiles and when should they preach ?
ANSWER 3)
In Matthew 10:24-25 Jesus says “A disciple is not above his teacher ,nor a servant above his master.It is enough for a student to be like his teacher and servansts like their master”.
Jesus says here that a disciple is not above his master and in verse 25 he says it is enough for a student to be like his teacher
My question is if Jesus himself did not preach to the gentiles then why will he ask his disciples to preach to the gentiles ? ,and if he did then he would be contradicting his own saying as by preaching to gentiles his disciples would be above him.
You said “can you show me ONE scholar that doesn’t just CLAIM that Matthew 28:19 a forgery, but actually has ANY manuscript evidence to go along with his claim to support it? JUST ONE!”
“There is a verse in Matthew – Matthew 28:19
that has a problem. The problem is – there are
no manuscripts that contain this verse prior to
the fourth century! There is absolutely NO manuscript
in any language that contains it prior to the
Trinitarian controversies. And the wording of this
verse seems to speak in the language of this period,
(4th Century) rather than from the time when Jesus
spoke. Yet it seems there are few who are willing
to weigh the evidence against this passage because
of the weight it carries in Church tradition.
The verse we will focus on is Matthew 28:19,
and the Trinity baptism formula!”
“one can look to the listing of the Papyri’s
as found in Kurt and Barbara Aland’s “The Text
of the New Testament, 2nd Edition, 1995,
pages 96-103.” This list gives a description
of the verses contained in each of the 96
papyri’s listed. Matthew 26:52 (P 37) seems
to be the last verse from Matthew found in
the Papyri’s. So there is virtually a two chapter
gap (as well as a three century gap) from the
“earliest manuscripts” and the traditional
rendering of the Matthew 28:19 Trinity baptism
formula.”
-Analysis of Matthew 28:19 – in A study
of the Text of the New Testament
Randall Duane Hughes
Matthew 28:19
“In the Sinaitic Syriac and the oldest
Latin Manuscript, the pages do not exist
which contained the end of Matthew.”
– F.C. Conybeare prof theology university of oxford
The epistles of Peter ,again it is a fact upheld by concensus of scholars both liberal and conservative that it was not written by peter the disciple of Jesus .
Coming on to the differences between Paul and the other early Christian sects
“Opponents of the same era include the Ebonites and Nazarenes,’Jewish Christians’ who rejected Paul for straying from normative Judaism Pauline Christianity, as an expression, first came into use in the 20th century among scholars who proposed different strands of thought within Early Christianity, wherein Paul was a powerful influence.
Lietzmann, Hans History of the Early Church Vol 1 p.206
“Pauline Christianity was essentially based on Rome and made use of the administrative skills which Rome had honed. Its system of organization with a single bishop for each town was, on this view, the means by which it obtained its hegemony.”
Ehrmann,Bart: Lost Christianities (OUP) p 175
Jesus wrote: Nakdimon a pattern is being developed here ,you are repeating yourself and is starting to be sarcastic.
MY REPLY:
Can you blame me for being sarcastic? You insist on contradictory readings of the Lord Yeshua only to be able to build a case against Paul while ignoring a barrage of verses that prove you wrong!
Jesus wrote: Coming on to Matthew 10 ,Jesus never said ‘only for this misssion do not go to the gentiles’ ,it is clearly your take on it
In verse 7 Jesus clearly says “go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’”
The message or good news about the coming of kingdom of heaven is the gospel of Christ .This verse clearly makes it clear that Jesus asked his disciples not to preach the gospel to the gentiles.
Coming on to Mark 14:9 ; Matthew 24:14 and Luke 24:46-47 ,the verses are obivios in that Jesus never asked his disciples to preach the gospel throught the world .
The verse Mark 14:9 says the woman who poured perfume on Jesus head will be remembered wherever the gospel is preached.
The verse Matthew 24:14 says gospel will be preached to all nations before the end of the world.
In verses of Luke 24:46-47 Jesus says repantance for forgiveness of sin will be preached in his name to all nations beginning from Jerusalem
MY REPLY: Well since I’m arguing for a harmonized reading of the words of the Lord Yeshua, which you would demand for the Quran, logic dictates that this command not to go to the Gentiles would have to be for that particular mission only! Since you insist on a contradictory reading, which you would categorically reject for the Quran, you keep harping on “it’s just your take on it” and reject a harmonized reading! What does that say about your honesty in this discussion?
Jesus wrote: ANSWER 1)
Had Jesus been telling his disciples to preach the gospel to the world , then the end of world should have come as they have preached the gospel long before .
MY REPLY: what nonsense is that? He didn’t tell his disciples they would go to every tribe on earth personally. He told them that they were to be his witnesses to the Gospel to the ends of the earth, which would mean that their testimony, be it direct preaching or written testimony, would reach the ends of the earth. Again, my reading is consistent with the Biblical teachings, your contrary to it, yet you insist that your reading is valid. Would you allow that with the Quran?
Jesus wrote: ANSWER 2)
Matthew 10:23 “Truly I tell you ,you will not finish going the towns of Israel before the son of man comes” .Jesus clearly says here that before the disciples finish preaching in Jerusalem he will come back ,now what about preaching to gentiles and when should they preach ?
MY REPLY: Yeshua/Jesus was not even talking about the second coming! LOL! Also, the phrase “before the son of man comes” simply means that the Son of Man will be manifested to them, i.e. they would meet him again, before they would go though the towns of Israel. I present you the following examples as a witness:
“They were all filled with awe and praised God. ‘A great prophet has appeared among us,’ they said. ‘GOD HAS COME to help his people’.” Luke 7:16
“Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and WE WILL COME to him and make our home with him.” John 14:23
“Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I WILL COME like a thief, and you will not know at what time I WILL COME to you.” Revelation 3:3
In these examples the word “come” simply refers to a visiting/appearance/manifestation. Since Yeshua/Jesus didn’t join his disciples on their mission, but went through Galillee alone (Matthew 11:1), he would simply meet them again before they went through the towns of Israel.
Jesus wrote: ANSWER 3)
In Matthew 10:24-25 Jesus says “A disciple is not above his teacher ,nor a servant above his master.It is enough for a student to be like his teacher and servansts like their master”.
Jesus says here that a disciple is not above his master and in verse 25 he says it is enough for a student to be like his teacher
My question is if Jesus himself did not preach to the gentiles then why will he ask his disciples to preach to the gentiles ? ,and if he did then he would be contradicting his own saying as by preaching to gentiles his disciples would be above him.
MY REPLY: What does that have ANYTHING to do with a student being like his teacher? As if a student is supposed to be IDENTICAL to his teacher and cannot do other things. Just because the disciples went to the Gentiles ON THE LORD YESHUA’S/JESUS’ ORDERS, that doesn’t mean that they exceed him in any way shape or form. Besides that wasn’t even the Lord Yeshua’s/Jesus’ point! Quote the entire passage:
Mat 10:24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!
Obviously the point here is that if the people treated the Lord badly and called him names, then obviously his followers would be treated likewise! Ergo, the student being like the teacher!
Jesus wrote: You said “can you show me ONE scholar that doesn’t just CLAIM that Matthew 28:19 a forgery, but actually has ANY manuscript evidence to go along with his claim to support it? JUST ONE!”
“There is a verse in Matthew – Matthew 28:19
that has a problem. The problem is – there are
no manuscripts that contain this verse prior to
the fourth century! There is absolutely NO manuscript
in any language that contains it prior to the
Trinitarian controversies. And the wording of this
verse seems to speak in the language of this period,
(4th Century) rather than from the time when Jesus
spoke. Yet it seems there are few who are willing
to weigh the evidence against this passage because
of the weight it carries in Church tradition.
The verse we will focus on is Matthew 28:19,
and the Trinity baptism formula!”
“one can look to the listing of the Papyri’s
as found in Kurt and Barbara Aland’s “The Text
of the New Testament, 2nd Edition, 1995,
pages 96-103.” This list gives a description
of the verses contained in each of the 96
papyri’s listed. Matthew 26:52 (P 37) seems
to be the last verse from Matthew found in
the Papyri’s. So there is virtually a two chapter
gap (as well as a three century gap) from the
“earliest manuscripts” and the traditional
rendering of the Matthew 28:19 Trinity baptism
formula.”
-Analysis of Matthew 28:19 – in A study
of the Text of the New Testament
Randall Duane Hughes
Matthew 28:19
“In the Sinaitic Syriac and the oldest
Latin Manuscript, the pages do not exist
which contained the end of Matthew.”
– F.C. Conybeare prof theology university of oxford
MY REPLY: Google sure does miracles, doesn’t it. Good job copy pasting from godglorified.com. LOL! All these quotes demonstrate is that 1) there are no extant Greek manuscripts of Matthew 28:19 before 325-350 and 2) the some ancient translations don’t have the end of Matthew. NONE have manuscript proof of it not being authentic. Like I said, ALL Greek manuscripts of Matthew that contain 28:19 have that passage and read as we have it today. So these people all have fancy theories based on what they want to force upon the manuscript tradition, but they have ZERO proof for their assertions and all manuscript evidence is against their fallacious theories. Furthermore, your quotes don’t even dispute the Commission AT ALL! LOL! They dispute the Trinitarian formula, NOT the command to go to ALL NATIONS and preach the Gospel! I’m not even going to ask you to step up your game anymore, I’ll just urge you to keep up!
Jesus wrote: The epistles of Peter ,again it is a fact upheld by concensus of scholars both liberal and conservative that it was not written by peter the disciple of Jesus .
MY REPLY:
A consensus? You do know what a consensus is, don’t you? You can’t even find a small majority for this argument, let alone establish a consensus! Man either try harder or just stop trying altogether.
Jesus wrote: Coming on to the differences between Paul and the other early Christian sects
“Opponents of the same era include the Ebonites and Nazarenes,’Jewish Christians’ who rejected Paul for straying from normative Judaism Pauline Christianity, as an expression, first came into use in the 20th century among scholars who proposed different strands of thought within Early Christianity, wherein Paul was a powerful influence.
Lietzmann, Hans History of the Early Church Vol 1 p.206
“Pauline Christianity was essentially based on Rome and made use of the administrative skills which Rome had honed. Its system of organization with a single bishop for each town was, on this view, the means by which it obtained its hegemony.”
Ehrmann,Bart: Lost Christianities (OUP) p 175
MY REPLY:
Oh dear. What is the world coming to when you have to quote liberal agnostics without a stitch of evidence on how “Pauine Christianity” deviates from the Messianic Movement that the Lord Yeshua established and his disciples continued? And the evidence for the difference in teachings is…. What exactly?
Nakdimon I should say you assume too much ,in previous posts including the last one you are just trying to impose your own view on Mark 14:9 ; Matthew 24:14 and Luke 24:46-47.
In the last post you accuse me of copying from a site .I have NOT TAKEN the reference from any site. I have taken it from these books ‘History of New Testament Criticism by’ F.C Conybeare page 75 to 77 and ‘A study of text of new testament’ page 96-103 and iam not arguing about the trinity formula in it but the assertion that Matthew 28:19 is forged or not .
You first ask for citation of scholars then when I give citation you flip flop and say they are not scholars but agonistics, be consistent Nakdimon .The books whom I cited are not written by just ordinary people but by the Scholars who are pioneers in those fields.In conclusion you are just propounding your own views and not considering what the scholars say.
Jesus wrote: Nakdimon I should say you assume too much ,in previous posts including the last one you are just trying to impose your own view on Mark 14:9 ; Matthew 24:14 and Luke 24:46-47.
MY REPLY: I assume too much? I have demonstrated that all these verse and more can be listed, indeed talk about the Lord Yeshua telling his disciples to preach the Gospel to Israel AND the Gentiles. This would be consistent with the rest of the scripture, while you make the preposterous claim that the Gospel going to the Gentiles is “not scriptural”, while ignoring all the texts to the contrary and then try to twist the meanings of others. Such as Acts 1:8, which you ignored before, for obvious reasons:
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.”
Acts 9:15, where the Lord Yeshua appears to Ananias to bring him the news Paul should go to the Gentiles:
Acts 9: 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! THIS MAN IS MY CHOSEN INSTRUMENT TO PROCLAIM MY NAME TO THE GENTILES AND THEIR KINGS AND TO THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL.
Or Acts 11 where Peter defends his preaching to the Gentiles and concludes with the following words:
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
Or Acts 15, where the preaching to the Gentiles is defended by a council of believers.
Or Acts 21 where James and the brothers in his fellowship praise God for what Paul was achieving among the Gentiles.
Heck, even the very passage that you quoted from earlier in Matthew 10 says that the disciples would be witnesses of the Gospel to the Gentiles:
Matthew 10: 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them AND TO THE GENTILES.
And I’M assuming too much???? Lil’ ol’ ME? MY reading is not scriptural?
Jesus wrote: In the last post you accuse me of copying from a site .I have NOT TAKEN the reference from any site. I have taken it from these books ‘History of New Testament Criticism by’ F.C Conybeare page 75 to 77 and ‘A study of text of new testament’ page 96-103 and iam not arguing about the trinity formula in it but the assertion that Matthew 28:19 is forged or not .
You first ask for citation of scholars then when I give citation you flip flop and say they are not scholars but agonistics, be consistent Nakdimon .The books whom I cited are not written by just ordinary people but by the Scholars who are pioneers in those fields.In conclusion you are just propounding your own views and not considering what the scholars say.
MY REPLY:
Well then your point is even more absurd. Because if your point is that “ scholars believe” that the verse is forged has nothing to do with the part of the verse that has to do with the great commission, then that means the SAME SCHOLARS CONFIRM that the great commission IS AUTHENTIC, THUS undercutting your entire argument, since their only part of contention is the Trinitarian formula and the Trinitarian formula ONLY, and the part under contention is NOT FORGED! However, those scholars that want to argue that the Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28:19 is fabricated have their work cut out for them as we have already seen, for they have 1) no manuscript evidence that it isn’t authentic 2) the formula is quoted as part of the scripture from the beginning of the 2nd century and 3) all they have are fancy theories of what might have happened with the text. That is HARDLY even a semi-solid foundation to build a convincing case for corruption of Matthew 28:19. So even if you think that you have “pioneers in those fields”, these so-called pioneers have nothing to go with other than ZERO evidence FOR their fancy theory and a mountain of evidence that goes against them. So don’t even try to accuse me of not being consistent. If there is anyone that is championing inconsistency here it is you!
Nakdimon read “The Brother of Jesus and the Lost Teachings of Christianity”by Jeffrey J. Butz
In his scholarly work he shows how the core teachings of Jesus are firmly rooted in Hebraic tradition; reveals the bitter battles between James and Paul for ideological supremacy in the early Church; and explains how Paul’s interpretations, which became the foundation of the Church, are in many ways its betrayal.
Butz reveals a picture of Christianity and the true meaning of Christ’s message that are sometimes at odds with established Christian doctrine.
This book upholds the points iam telling and Rabbi Skobac is trying to convey.
Ok hotshot. can u mention just ONE source from ancient history that this Jeffrey Butz lists as his source material for this “bitter rivalry” that supposedly went on between James and Paul. JUST ONE ANCIENY SOURCE! If u cant then either u havent read his book either or he is just making his stuff up and I’m forced to conclude that this books claims are merely fictional.
Thanx!
“It’s clear to anyone who has read the Koran that Mohammed demonized the Jews collectively and thus made them his perpetual enemies and the perpetual enemies of Islam.”
Really? Please cite the reference.
I think this s what he wasx talking about:
5:82 Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists…
I think Madmana can speak for himself. So is that the verse you had in mind?
Nakidimon you are a typical example of those Christians who does not know anything about Quran or Arabic ,but will still comment on them .
The verse you quoted does not give the idea what you are trying to portray ,you probably copy pasted it from answering Islam or answering Muslims.
The verse you quoted follows the linguistic principle of Arabic referring to specific people by using a general term.
The verse address to those Jews who used to hate Muslims and who used to get allied with the pagans against the Muslims.
The context makes it even more clear that the verse it not referring to all Jews
(5:78) THOSE of the Children of Israel who took to unbelief have been cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary, for they rebelled and exceeded the bounds of right.
(5:79) They did not forbid each other from committing the abominable deeds they committed.Indeed what they did was evil
(5:80) And now you can see many of them taking the unbelievers (instead of the believers) for their allies. Indeed they have prepared evil for themselves. God is angry with them, and they shall abide in chastisement.
(5:81) For had they truly believed in God and the Messenger and what was sent down to him, they would not have taken unbelievers (instead of believers) for their allies.But many of them have rebelled against God altogether.
(5:82) Of all men you will find the Jews and those who associate others with Allah in His divinity to be the most hostile to those who believe and you will surely find that of all people they who say: ‘We are Christians’, are closest to feeling affection for those who believe. This is because there are worshipful priests and monks among them, and because they are not arrogant.
POINTS TO NOTE
1)The context makes it clear by saying those of the children of Israel
2)When verse 82 says Jews it does not mean all but a specific among them as it follows the rule of Arabic to refer to a specific people by general term
3)The verses say that those of children of Israel took unbelief ,did not forbid each other from doing wrong,took to the pagans as friends and are staunchly against the Muslims instead of befriending them
4) It seems natural that those who believe in God and the Prophets and the Scriptures, compared with the polytheists, would naturally be more sympathetic to those who at least share with them belief in God, in prophethood and in .revelation (whatever their disagreements on other religious issues). It was ironic, therefore, that the Jews should openly support the polytheists in the struggle between polytheism and monotheism, and that their sympathies in the conflict between those who rejected prophethood and those who believed in it should lie expressly with the former. Despite all this, they brazenly claimed to be true believers in God, in the Prophets and in the Scriptures.
Nakidimon next time please comment before reading the verse what you are posting rather than just copying and pasting from those sites who twist the truth and tell open lies
“Jesus”,
Good to see that you are accusing me of dishonesty. Let’s see if you are quick to condemn your Mufassirin as you do me. Here is what Ibn Kathir says:
(Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers the Jews and those who commit Shirk,) This describes THE JEWS, since their disbelief is that of rebellion, defiance, opposing the truth, belittling other, people and degrading the scholars. This is why THE JEWS – may Allah’s continued curses descend on them until the Day of Resurrection – killed many of THEIR Prophets and tried to kill the Messenger of Allah several times, as well as, performing magic spells against him and poisoning him. They also incited their likes among the polytheists against the Prophet.
Seems like a general accusation according to Ibn Kathir as well. So tell me, “Jesus” (I suggest you change the name lest you insult my Lord), did Ibn Kathir take that from answering Islam or answering muslims as well? Is Ibn Kathir being dishonest, twisting the truth and telling open lies?
nakdimon first let me make it clear iam not hurting any one here .I kept Jesus as my label because i like him.
Next the tafsir of Ibn Kathir which you are quoting is not saying what you are trying to project .You are deriving your own exegesis on it ,again this tafsir also you have copy pasted from those sites which i mentioned.
Did you read what i said in my previous post ? the answer is obviously no.
The verse you quoted follows the linguistic principle of Arabic referring to specific people by using a general term.
THE JEWS HERE MEANS TO SPECIFIC JEWS WHO ARE DOING THAT NOT TO ALL.
Lets see what the tafsir is saying .
“The Jews, since their disbelief is that of rebellion, defiance, opposing the truth, belittling other, people and degrading the scholars. This is why THE JEWS – may Allah’s continued curses descend on them until the Day of Resurrection – killed many of THEIR Prophets and tried to kill the Messenger of Allah several times, as well as, performing magic spells against him and poisoning him. They also incited their likes among the polytheists against the Prophet.”
Jews used to kill prophets of God and used to never listen to the message send by God through them and they even took part with unbelievers against prophet Mohammed who upheld their Laws,their prophets but still Jews were hostile to him and plotted to kill him,so God will curse them for their deeds.
That is what the tafsir is saying ,what is wrong in it or so antisemitic about it.If you still think it is antisemitic then you should probably read these verses
Matthew 23:32-35
“Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation . ”
Matthew 8:12
“the children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
When did I ever speak of anti-Semitism? What I do believe is that the Quran does stir to Jew hatred! Which is something you cannot accuse the New Testament of, since it is written by Jews and it proclaims the ultimate salvation of the Jewish people! The Quran is an ARAB book and incites Arabs and those that follow their ways, to hate and despise Jews. And the tafsir I did NOT quote from Answering Islam (the site for which I write, so whats wrong about that, as long as the source is quoted and applied accurately) or answering Muslims. I got it from qtafsir.com, an Islamic website! And you made my point! The Tafsir says that Jews in GENERAL and as a people have done these things and thus this verse applies to them in general and as a people as well! LOL. This just gets better and better!
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
Here is the Asbāb al-Nuzūl of(i.e. the contexts and occasions of the Revelation of the Qur’an) of Q 5:82 by the earliest scholar of Asbāb al-Nuzūl (d. 468/1075)
نزلت في النجاشي وأصحابه.
قال ابن عباس: كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وهو بمكة، يخاف على أصحابه من المشركين، فبعث جعفر بن أبي طالب، وابن مسعود، في رهط من أصحابه إلى النجاشي، وقال: “إنه ملك صالح، لا يَظلم ولا يُظلم عنده أحدٌ، فاخرجوا إليه حتى يجعل الله للمسلمين فرجاً”. فلما وردوا عليه أكرمهم وقال لهم: تعرفون شيئاً مما أنزل عليكم؟ قالوا: نعم، قال: اقرأوا. فقرأوا وحوله القِسِّيسُون والرّهبان، فكلما قرأوا آية انحدرت دموعهم مما عرفوا من الحق، قال الله تعالى: {ذٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ مِنْهُمْ قِسِّيسِينَ وَرُهْبَاناً وَأَنَّهُمْ لاَ يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ، وَإِذَا سَمِعُواْ مَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَى ٱلرَّسُولِ تَرَىۤ أَعْيُنَهُمْ تَفِيضُ مِنَ ٱلدَّمْعِ…} الآية.
أخبرنا الحسن بن محمد الفارسي، قال: حدَّثنا محمد بن عبد الله بن حمدون بن الفضل، قال: حدَّثنا أحمد بن محمد بن الحسن، قال: حدَّثنا محمد بن يحيى، قال: حدَّثنا أبو صالح كاتب الليث، قال: حدَّثني الليث، قال: حدَّثني يونس [عن] ابن شهاب، عن سعيد بن المسيب وعُرْوَة بن الزبير وغيرهما، قال:
بعث رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عَمْرَو بن أُميَّة الضَّمْري، وكتب معه كتاباً إلى النجاشي، فقدم على النجاشي، فقرأ كتاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم، ثم دعا جعفر بن أبي طالب والمهاجرين معه، فأرسل إلى الرهبان والقِسِّيسِينَ فجمعهم، ثم أمر جعفراً أن يقرأ عليهم القرآن، فقرأ سورة “مريم” عليها السلام، فآمنوا بالقرآن وفاضت أعينهم من الدمع، وهم الذين أنزل فيهم: {وَلَتَجِدَنَّ أَقْرَبَهُمْ مَّوَدَّةً لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ ٱلَّذِينَ قَالُوۤاْ إِنَّا نَصَارَىٰ} إلى قوله: {فَٱكْتُبْنَا مَعَ ٱلشَّاهِدِينَ}.
وقال آخرون: قدم جعفر بن أبي طالب من الحبشة هو وأصحابه، ومعهم سبعون رجلاً، بعثهم النجاشي وفداً إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم، عليهم ثياب الصوف، اثنان وستون من الحبشة، وثمانية من أهل الشام، وهم: بحيرا الراهب وأَبْرَهَة، وإدريس، وأشرف، وتمام، وقتيم، ودريد وأيمن. فقرأ عليهم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم سورة “يس” إلى آخرها، فبكوا حين سمعوا القرآن، وآمنوا وقالوا: ما أشبه هذا بما كان ينزل على عيسى. فأنزل الله تعالى فيهم هذه الآيات.
أخبرنا أحمد بن محمد العدل، حدَّثنا زاهر بن أحمد، قال: أخبرنا أبو القاسم البغوي، قال: حدَّثنا علي بن الجَعْد، قال: حدَّثنا شريك بن سالم، عن سعيد بن جُبَيْر في قوله تعالى: {ذٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ مِنْهُمْ قِسِّيسِينَ وَرُهْبَاناً} قال: بعث النَّجَاشي إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم، من خيار أصحابه ثلاثين رجلاً، فقرأ عليهم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم سورة “يس” فبكوا، فنزلت هذه الآية.
These verses were revealed about the Negus and his followers.
Said Ibn ‘Abbas: “When he was in Mecca, the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, used to fear the idolaters’ persecution of his Companions. He therefore sent Ja‘far ibn Abi Talib and ‘Abd Allah ibn Mas‘ud, at the head of a group of his Companions, to the Negus. He said: ‘The Negus is a righteous man; he is not an oppressor and none is oppressed in his dominion. So head toward him and remain there until Allah creates relief for the Muslims’. When they went to him, the Negus honoured them and then asked them: ‘Do you memorise anything of that which was revealed to you?’ They answered in the affirmative and then recited to him [some Qur’an,] with monks and priests surrounding him. Whenever they read a verse, the tears rolled down their cheeks due to the truth which they recognized. Allah, exalted is He, says: (That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud)”.
Al-Hasan ibn Muhammad al-Farisi informed us> Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah ibn Hamdun ibn al-Fadl> Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn al-Hasan> Muhammad ibn Yahya> Abu Salih, the scribe of al-Layth> al-Layth> Yunus> Ibn Shihab> Sa‘id ibn al-Musayyab and ‘Urwah ibn al-Zubayr as well as others who said: “The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, sent ‘Amr ibn Umayyah al-Damri with a message to the Negus. The latter read the message of the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, and then called Ja‘far ibn Abi Talib and all the Emigrants with him and he also invited priests and monks to the assembly. He ordered Ja‘far ibn Abi Talib to recite to them from the Qur’an, and he read Surah Maryam, peace be upon her. They believed in the Qur’an and tears flowed from their eyes. It is about them that Allah, exalted is He, revealed (And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians) up to His words (Inscribe us as among the witnesses)”.
Other commentators said: “Ja‘far ibn Abi Talib and his companions came from Abyssinia accompanied by a delegation from the Negus to the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace. The delegation included seventy men, all wearing wool. There were sixty-two from Abyssinia and eight from Syria: Bahirah the monk, Abrahah, Idris, Ashraf, Tammam, Quthaym, Durayd and Ayman. When the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, recited to them Surah Yasin, they wept and believed. They commented: ‘How similar is this to what used to be revealed to Jesus’. And so Allah, exalted is He, revealed about them these verses”.
Ahmad ibn Muhammad al-‘Adl informed us> Zahir ibn Ahmad> Abu’l-Qasim al-Baghawi> ‘Ali ibn al-Ja‘d> Sharik> Salim> Sa‘id ibn Jubayr who, commenting on Allah’s words (That is because there are among them priests and monks), said: “The Negus sent thirty men among his best subjects to the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace. When the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, recited to them Surah Yasin, they wept, and so this verse was revealed”.
So this verse is talking about the situation in Mecca during the prosecution of early muslims not talking about the Jews in general.
Wassalam
WHAT THE QURAN SAYS ABOUT THE JEWS
1)God has favored them and selected them above all nations
Quran 2:47-53
Quran 2:60,122
Quran 45:16
2)God took a covenant from them that if they believe and do righteous deeds God will reward them
Quran 2:83-86,93,100
Quran 5:12,13,70
3)God gave them them book in inheritance
Quran 32:23-25
Quran 40:53-55
4)God delivered them from the enemy and gave them ‘Mann and Salwa’
Quran 20:80-82
WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO JEWS AND CHRISTIANS WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN MOHAMMED (P.B.U.H)
Coming on to the important question what will be the fate of Jews and Christians if they do not believe in Mohammed (p.b.u.h)
To attain eternal salvation and reward from God believe in Mohammed(p.b.u.h) is NOT MANDATORY.
If Jews and Christians believe in God and do righteous deeds they will attain eternal salvation they need not believe in Mohammed (p.b.u.h).
Quran 2:62
“Those who believe , and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.”
Quran 5:69
“Indeed, those who have believed and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians – those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness – no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
Believe in God is the believe in one true God of Abraham,Moses and all the prophets not the hypothetical triune God.
This is the universal appeal of Islam ,where any one who believes in God and do righteous deeds will attain salvation .It is not restricted to a believe in any individual whosoever it may be.
The purpose of all the prophets is that God revealed who he is through them and he also revealed why did he created humans for .The relation with God and us is one to one not through any human being, be that human being any prophet .
This is the biggest absurdity of Christianity founded by Paul where we have to believe that a man who lived 2000yrs before us died and was ressurected to attain eternal salvation.This concept put forward by Paul restricts the universal availability of God to his creation and puts a barrier between them that to reach God we have to go through Jesus and believe he died!
That the difference between Islam a way revealed by God universal in way to reach God and Christianity a concept put forward by Paul very limited and absurd in its way to reach God !
I’m spoilt for choice. There is plenty of hate speech in the Koran against the Jews which, by the way, remains for ever valid. What is written is written.
62 6:Say: You Jews! If you believe that you are Allah’s favorite people, set apart, then wish that you will die if you are telling the truth! But they will never wish to die because of their previous actions that have been sent on before them. Allah knows the evil-doers.
4:44 Have you not thought about those Jews to whom a part of the Scripture was given? They buy error for themselves and wish to see you go astray from the right path. But Allah knows your enemies best. …..We have heard and we disobey. We hear as one who does not hear. Look at us! in this way twisting the phrase and defiling the faith.
4 47 To those of you to whom the Scriptures were given: Believe in what We have sent down confirming the Scriptures you already possess before We destroy your faces and twist your heads around backwards, or curse you as We did those who broke the Sabbath for Allah’s commandments will be carried out.
There’s plenty more where that came from. Do you want to consider the Hadiths too?
I asked you to back up your claim: “It’s clear to anyone who has read the Koran that Mohammed demonized the Jews collectively and thus made them his perpetual enemies and the perpetual enemies of Islam.”
The verses above do not match your claim. I cant find which translation you are quoting from madmanna. Could you tell me please.
If you read the verses in the recent highly acclaimed academic translation such as Oxford University’s Abdel Haleem version, 62:6 reads:
I think the passage makes a good point, dont you?
The Old Testament prophets are much more fierce in their denunciations of Israel and it’s sins than the Quran is. The prophet Jeremiah is a good example.
*
The other two translations do not exactly match the one’s I have, but even as they stand they do not substantiate your claim that the Quran ‘demonized the Jews collectively and thus made them his perpetual enemies and the perpetual enemies of Islam.”
Could it be that you have a preconception of what the Quran must teach such that you impose your preconception onto the words of the Book giving it a meaning it does not have? It might be an idea to lay aside preconceptions and let the words speak for themselves.
madmanna please read the verses i quoted above .The verses you are quoting does not speak against Jews
verse 62:6
“Say, “O you who are Jews, if you claim that you are allies of Allah , excluding the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful.”
this verse says that Jews used to claim that they are selected of God to the exclusion of others this verse says to those Jews , to wish for death if they think they are right ,it continues as “But they will not wish for it, ever, because of what their hands have put forth. And Allah is Knowing of the wrongdoers.”
it says they will not wish for it because of the wrong deeds they sent forth before them.
This verse is directed to those Jews who think so, not all to all. But the verse says o Jews as it follows the Arabic linguistic principle of referring to specific people by using a general term.
verse4:44
“Have you noted those who received a portion of the scripture, and how they choose to stray, and wish that you stray from the path?”
This verse says to those who received scripture and choose to went astray that they buy error by changing words of God .Verse 47 then says that if people who are given the scripture does not believe in the scriptures and does not do good work God will punish them as he punished the Sabbath brokers
None of the verses you quoted are antisemitic ,you have a problem comprehending them.
It is the New testament which is antisemitic ,it portrays Jews as dumb people not understanding basic teachings of Jesus,then Paul abolishes the laws of Moses and abhors them whereas Quran upholds them and asks the Jews to follow them properly ,then comes the early Christians who were highly antisemitic openly condemning them and asking people to kill them.
Top Christian figures including martin Luther openly asked to kill Jews.
Then comes waves of massacres of Jews by Christians .The Christians openly took part with the roman empire to massacre Jews ,then the crusaders massacred Jews many a times burning them alive ,crucifying them,eating their flesh ,burning down synagogues,killing women and children and raping many women,then comes the massacre of Jews throughout the Europe ,the Spanish inquisition the whole sale murder of Jews and extermination,then comes the waves and waves of Jewish killings throughout Europe,then comes the Nazis where Jews were gassed in millions and cleansed from Europe.
Can you show me the above mentioned things what the Christians did to the Jews done by Muslims .When in the history were they massacred by Muslims for no other reason just that they being a Jew.Can you show me one incidence where Muslims massacred them in millions as you people did to them ,you cant .But you people are the first to blame Muslims because you are unaware of history and facts as you never read them .What you people read is the anti Islamic websites who tell lies upon lies and you think it to be correct and come to argue with us
Throughout history Jews used to find protection and safe heaven in the Islamic ruled lands ,read history madmanna.
2.40 “Do not mix up the truth with lies or knowingly hide the truth.
2.75 Can you believers then hope that the Jews will believe you even though they heard the word of Allah and purposefully altered it after they understood it’s meaning? And when they are among the believers they say, “We believe too,” but when they are alone with one another they say, “Will you tell them what Allah has revealed to you so that they can argue with you about it in the presence of your Lord?”
2.78 There are illiterate people among them who do not know the Scriptures but only lies and unclear conjectures. Wretchedness will come to those who write their own scriptures and then claim, “This is from Allah”, so that they can sell it for a pitiful price. They will have a mournful fate because of what they have written and for what they have earned by their actions.
Quotations are from An Abridged Koran, Readable and Understandable from the Center for the Study of Political Islam.
To J:
So if the Jews found protection and safe haven under Islam why did they vanish from the Arabian peninsula? A mysterious illness perhaps?
I have already explained what those verses mean .They do not mean what you are thinking it to be .You are applying your exegesis on them .Please read them again in context and i told you about the rule of Arabic grammar ,please read it again.
why did Jews vanish from Arabian peninsula ?
They did not vanish,many converted to Islam and many left for Israel after its formation no body massacred them or throwed them out ,they went on their own.
Coming on to where did they vanish from actually is Europe ,they were just cleansed out
Estimates say that have Jews not been massacred in Europe their population would have been 300 million today !
“Quotations are from An Abridged Koran, Readable and Understandable from the Center for the Study of Political Islam.”
This is not a scholarly translation madmannaa. The author of the book is a certain Bill Warner whose website demonstrates a profound hatred for Islam. He is not a scholar.
The Quran cannot abridged as it is the complete Revelation of God. Can I sugest that in future you use translations by reputable scholars who know Quranic arabic?
I think that the Bible-believing Christians should reflect on the fact that they are doing with the Qur’an and Islam *exactly* what secular anti-Christians do with the Bible and Christianity – they are taking quotes out of context in order to slander a faith AND they are using the bad behavior of some self-proclaimed Muslims to slander a community of millions.
And when their errors are pointed out to them, they do not acknowledge the error; they simply move on to another poorly-understood verse.
Christians, I was once a Christian and I had so many discussions like this with people attacking the Bible and attacking Christians! You are doing the same thing that they did! I’m not asking you to support the Qur’an or Islam, just put some more research and understanding into it!
You seem to believe that anyone taking the most simple and abbreviated look at the Qur’an and Muslim history can do nothing but conclude that it is a monstrous faith. Yet, there are so many millions of Muslims around the world. The number of people who hold a belief does not make that belief right, but it does mean that you feel that these many millions study a text every day of their lives and are so stupid as to miss what is so incredibly obvious. Perhaps they are simply able to understand it in a way that you, with your superficial understanding of the text, cannot. Just as the western atheists today are able to thumb through the Christian Bible and completely miss its message. And those same western atheists will look at every Christian loon like Anders Breivik or David Koresh and blame their lunacy on the Christian Bible, just as you use every Muslim loon like Mohammed Merah to slander the Qur’an and Islam.
You have adopted the exact tactics that the anti-Christian element use against you, and you are using them against Islam, and it is just as effective against Islam as it is against Christianity.
Seemingly the discussion has just gone further from evaluating the main idea of the rabbi, please watch another explanation concerning this presumably original messianic jews in another rabbi Skobac’ video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZcJv_D6l48&feature=relmfu
Rabi Scobac main conclusion from these 2 videos is that those presumably ‘true’ Judaic Christian had been extinct already since 250 AD which consequently based on Gamaliel statement in book of Acts this proves that the ORIGINAL Al-Masih movement started by Isa a.s weren’t from God after all.
Could any muslim believe this conclusion ?
1:16:30-1:16:50 Rabbi Scobac tells that all nations will come to the Jews to know the true God
Could any true Muslim believe this statement which certainly heavy with zionist tone ?
All of muslims here are just nullifying your own belief in order to deny the truth of christianity, . why are you all being so desperate ?
To J:
You use Romans 7 to claim that Paul invented a system of savation in which the Law had no place. Here are some quotes from the rest of the chaper which you left out. These show that
your claim is unfounded:
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Paul says here that the fault does not lie in the law but in the weakness of man to keep it. The Law can not change man inwardly. It can only show man what is required of him but it can not help him to keep it. It can only lead to condemnation.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Don’t you know about the Great Commission? Jesus said to his disciples Go ye in to all the world and preach the gospel to every creature baptizing them in the Name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He also said “Go and make disciples of all nations.”.
Some of the original disciples seemed to be reluctant to go to the Gentiles with the gospel. God had to command Peter in a vision to go to the uncircumcised Roman Centurion Cornelius to show that Gentiles also received remission of sins through Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
At the end of the day what the Messianic Jews did as Jews is irrelevant because God poured out his Spirit on the Gentiles and gave them remission of sins through Jesus without any obligation to perform Judaistic rituals or temple rites.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.