MDI Australia member, Abdullah Kunde debates Dr James White, of Alpha & Omega Ministries.
Debate filmed 17/09/2011 at UNSW, Sydney, Australia.
Categories: Christianity, Debates
MDI Australia member, Abdullah Kunde debates Dr James White, of Alpha & Omega Ministries.
Debate filmed 17/09/2011 at UNSW, Sydney, Australia.
Categories: Christianity, Debates
The Muslim Debate Initiative 
Merciful God forgives people that is why he is merciful but when people do bad do not repent he punishes them because he is just .It is not contradictory
You said “If God can Choose to limit (not annihilate) His ability in particular circumstances so why childishly insisting it as Contradiction?”
God being god and man at the same time is 2 exactly opposite things together which is contradictory not just limiting his ability
To Mr.Mustafa
Nope..sorry your view on “contradictory” is false 😎
You have obviously already being deceived by your own suggestive mind that assumed Christian believes in Contradiction when the fact is not.
Something might be appeared paradox and incomprehensible but it won’t necessarily being accused as “contradictory”
And what I’ve been trying to do all a long is to help u get out of your own deceptive illusion which u create suggestively upon yourself, by keep convincing to your own conscience this heretic idea that Christian believe in Contradictory thing when the reality we’re not.
U pick up this idea base on false presumption God vs Man (Image of God) =Contradiction
That’s why I help u in tutoring how to use your logic in the right way:
ALL Mighty God vs Mighty Man is not contradiction but different degree of quality
Genuine Contradiction should be All-Mighty vs Totally Weak
ALL-Hearing God vs Hearing Man is not contradiction, but different degree of quality
Genuine Contradiction should be All-Hearing vs All-Deaf
ALL-Merciful God vs Merciful Man is not contradiction but again different degree of quality
Genuine Contradiction should be All-Merciful vs All-Cruel
All-Good God vs Good man is not contradiction
Genuine Contradiction should be All-Good vs All-Evil
God Incarnating Himself into Man is not Contradiction, cause even a Man can BEHAVE like God but in lower degree of quality , And God can behave like Man when He limit the manifestation of His ability. CO-MINGLING TWO NATURE WHICH ARE NOT WHOLLY CONTRADICTORY IS NOT CONTRADICTION…SIR (remember particle&wave? :lol:)
As the example of All-Merciful God Sovereignly Choose to limit His manifestation of Mercy &Compassion when dealing in particular situation which is sentencing the kufr by giving him cancer and send him to hell in after life , it is almost as same as All-Mighty &All-Great God Sovereignly Chose to limit His Manifestation of Mighty&Greatness when dealing with particular problem which was Incarnating Himself to become Christ The God-Man.
U have to be consistent “doctor”! either God can limit the manifestation of His Ability to particular situation or God can’t limit the manifestation of His ability at all.
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Btw how do u explain to justify your action on taking reference from unreliable source? Is this act of yours represent your intellectual capacity ,Mr.Mustafa? May i remind u again on your comment ***Coming to my qouting of theory of other physicist like Milo Wolff i never said they are accepted and proved theories”****
Please be mature & take responsibility Sir ! 😎
How do u explain your unproven claim that Shekinah is not God and u claim this view is biblically orthodox, but apparently not according to Vatican ((http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html), so can u take any responsibility for your statement at all, doctor?
How do you explain the Radiant Glory of Allah (An-Noor) is it created or NOT & is it alive or NOT ? why keep on dodging my questions Sir?
Still waiting for your full explanations. Mr.Mustafa.. take your time if u still able to continue
😆 😆
May Peace be upon you
RJ
Mr.regular john stop your blabbering .You don’t make any sense but is continuing in your nonsense .Good points by mr. mustafa his points are logical and making sense
God only knows what your talking and what do you want to say.Here we have a stupid missionary with his mind numbing garbage
EDUCATING REGULAR JOHN
YOU SAID
“Btw how do u explain to justify your action on taking reference from unreliable source? Is this act of yours represent your intellectual capacity ,Mr.Mustafa? May i remind u again on your comment ***Coming to my qouting of theory of other physicist like Milo Wolff i never said they are accepted and proved theories”****
Please be mature & take responsibility Sir !”
ANSWER
Proving a thing from unreliable source is called taking reference from unreliable sources just to proof our point .I quoted Milo wolf just to show the views of various scientist on duality of matter not to proof my point .
But i proved my point on duality of matter that it is not contradictory from TEXTBOOK OF ENGINEERING PHYSICS BY NEW AGE INTERNATIONAL PUBLISHERS AND OTHER BEING STEPHEN HAWKING FROM HIS BOOK ‘A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME FROM BIG BANG TO BLACK HOLES’ which are standard sources.Inspite of my telling this you are continuously repeating your idiotic attitude of blaming me from quoting from unauthentic source.
YOU SAID
How do u explain your unproven claim that Shekinah is not God and u claim this view is biblically orthodox
ANSWER
My view on that verse of 1 kings 8:10-12 is that, it is not God himself dwelling in the cloud.It is a radiant outshining of His character and presence and my view is very biblical as no body be it either Jew or Christian believes that it is God himself coming in the cloud.
Let us see different commentaries on this verse
Mathew commentary on whole bible
“The glory of God appearing in a cloud may signify, 1. The darkness of that dispensation, in comparison with the light of the gospel, by which, with open face, we behold, as in a glass, the glory of the Lord. 2. The darkness of our present state, in comparison with the sight of God, which will be the happiness of heaven, where the Divine glory is unveiled.”
John gills exposition of the bible
“The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness;
and now was fulfilling his promise, and therefore to be considered not as a token of his displeasure, but of his gracious presence; this was done for the greater awe of the divine Majesty, and to denote the darkness of the former dispensation; reference may be had to ( Leviticus 16:2 ) or rather this was now said by the Lord, that is, it appeared to be his resolution and determination to dwell in this manner; the Targum is,“the Lord is pleased to cause his Shechinah or divine Majesty to dwell in Jerusalem,”in the temple there. This was imitated by the Heathens; hence the Lacedemonians had a temple dedicated to Jupiter Scotitas, or the dark, as Pausanias relates; and the Indian Pagans to this day affect darkness in their temples, and are very careful that no light enter into them but by the door, which is commonly strait and low, and by little crevices in the windows”
These commentaries does not say God himself dwelt in the cloud it is just his presence. Next time before commenting read some books John.
YOU SAID
How do you explain the Radiant Glory of Allah (An-Noor) is it created or NOT & is it alive or NOT ? why keep on dodging my questions Sir?
ANSWER
I have never seen an idiot of your order in my life,despite repeated telling that glory of Allah is not separate from Allah you are persisting in your dumbness and trying to implement the paganistic Christian belief of holy spirit being separate to God on Islam
YOU SAID
God becoming man is not contradiction
ANSWER
It is looking as if you are not reading what iam posting in my points above but is continuing in your dumbness
God being God and man the same time is contradictory
….all knowing and not all knowing at same time
…self subsisting and not self subsisting at the same time
…eternally living and not eternally living at the same time
….all seeing and not all seeing at the same time
….all hearing and not all hearing at the same time
….all powerful and not all powerful at the same time , etc,etc
God is eternal man is not i.e God is not having any beginning but man has beginning so how an one be without beginning and with beginning at the same time.
God is not having any end but man is having an end so how can you have no end and an end at the same time.
God is self subsisting but man is not so how can you be self subsisting and not self subsisting at the same time.
YOU SAID
” And God can behave like Man when He limit the manifestation of His ability”
ANSWER
God limiting his ability (like showing his grace) will not make him devoid of having
that ability, still God will be having it ,but man on the other hand will have limit on his capabilities no matter how much he has it .So how can one be having limitless ability and having limited ability at the same time.
God is all knowing ,all hearing,all seeing,all powerful but man is not .Man also can acquire knowledge,he can see,he can hear and he can also have power but to an extant within a limit
So God being God and man at the same time will be contradictory as how can one be having all things limitless and within limit at the same time.
Man acquires his abilities over time and God doesn’t acquire he has them.So how can one be having these abilities with out acquiring and with acquiring at the same .
Man needs eyes to see,ears to hear , tongue to talk,brain to think,heart to pump blood etc,etc.That is man is dependent on these organs .God does not need any of these still he see,hear and exist .So if God is God and man the same time it is contradictory as how can you do not need any of these and need at the same time
SO GOD BEING GOD AND MAN IS CONTRADICTION.
Even a man with 1 cell in his brain will understand this but regular john is persisting in his idiotic stubbornness may he do not have even 1 cell in his brain
Greetings Mr. Mustafa
Dr. Mustafa: “Proving a thing from unreliable source is called taking reference from unreliable sources just to proof our point .I quoted Milo wolf just to show the views of various scientist on duality of matter not to proof my point .”
RJ: Sorry Sir! But allow me to “EDUCATE” you that this forum is not a “STUDYING SCIENCE FORUM” where u&me both studying & making hypothesis about COULD’VE BEEN OR COULD HAVEN’T BEEN on certain matters by taking &analyzing many views as much as we can. Unfortunately for u this is not a Study Forum but a POLEMIC DEBATE FORUM where each opposite side standing on each truth their hold taking reference from reliable source . Your excuse shows how inadequate your capability in debating by clearly bring such presumptive material in here. 😎
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Dr.Mustafa : God is not having any end but man is having an end
RJ: So by you own admission you don’t believe that evil man will endure ETERNAL PUNISHMENT THEN? TO ENDURE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT REQUIRES SOMETHING GOT TO BE UNENDING RIGHT? & Sorry are u an Atheist?coz sounds like u don’t believe in living “without end” in heaven also! AGAIN SUCH A “HASTY UNINTELLIGENT ” RESPONSE OF YOURS BEING OPENLY DISPLAYED 😆
And again you keep insisting (childishly) that we christian have to follow your heretic idea that God Incarnation as Man has to be the same with :
Not Powerful Equals Poweful
Not Eternal Equals Eternal
Excuse me sir, are just kidding around here? even a kindergarten kid would laugh at your “kindergarten” logic 😆
The true normal logic is:
The Uncreated God mingling with Created Man in incomprehensible way
The Self Subsisting God mingling with Not Self Subsisting Man in incomprehensible way
WITHOUT ANNIHILATING EACH NATURE
Almost as the same as Particle-wave Duality remember?
I see you still entrapped by your own delusion of ” God transforming into 100% man”. , please get rid of that heretical thinking and take your time to ponder in clear mind.
INCARNATION IS NOT MAN BECOMING GOD but Man becoming fully perfect as Temple Of God (John 2:20), …haven’t u got it yet? 🙄
========================
Dr. Mustafa : “These commentaries does not say God himself dwelt in the cloud it is just his presence. Next time before commenting read some books John.”
RJ: Next time ,PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT U READ FIRST BEFORE PRESENT IT HERE, doctor,.. 🙂
So please logically explain to me HOW CAN AN ENTITY BE DECLARED PRESENCE IN “SOMETHING” WHEN HE ACTUALLY NOT PRESENT IN THAT SOMETHING?
Isn’t it a CONTRADICTION? 😎
Considering BIBLICAL ORTHODOXY, my reference is FAR ANCIENT & ORTHODOX compares to yours, like I’ve said I refer to ROMAN CATHOLIC DOCTRINE of Holy spirit:
**Never in rabbinical texts is the Spirit considered as an entity separate from God, even though at times it is used as synonymous with God and inter-changeable with Shekinah (majesty of God present among men and in nature; immanence.
Hebrew philosophy likens the Spirit to the rabbinical Shekinah (Filone), to the Glory of God (Jehudah HaLevi)……The Mysticism of Rhenish Hassidism (12th-13th century) refers again to the Glory «it is the great splendour called Shekinah and therefore identical to the Spirit of Holiness from which come the voice and the word of God».(http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html)***
***CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH …On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the “cloud came and overshadowed” Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and “a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!'” Finally, the cloud took Jesus out of the sight of the disciples on the day of his ascension and will reveal him as Son of man in glory on the day of his final coming…
(so by this your claim of biblical orthodoxy is refuted “easily”)
But even that ,from your commentators themselves they admit that by Holy Spirit this indwelling process is manifested ;
MATTHEW HENRY COMMENTARY : In all believers God the Father dwells, as in his holy temple, by his Spirit and special grace. (http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=49&c=4&com=mhc)
JOHN GILL COMMENTARY : And the end of their being thus built together is, for an habitation of God through the Spirit……a fit habitation for the holy God to dwell in; and that God dwells in his churches by his Spirit.
From my CAREFUL READING OF COMPLETE RELIABLE REFERENCES( Ancient Catholic & Reformed Protestant) IT IS UNDENIABLE FACT THAT THE SHEKINAH IS HOLY SPIRIT.
AGAIN YOU’VE SHOWN YOUR POOR INTELLECTUAL CAPABILITY ON EXAMINING YOUR OWN REFERENCES, “doctor” .. what a shame for such an obvious intellectual degeneration being displayed over& over again 🙄
=======================
Dr.Mustafa: “I have never seen an idiot of your order in my life,despite repeated telling that glory of Allah is not separate from Allah you are persisting in your dumbness and trying to implement the paganistic Christian belief of holy spirit being separate to God on Islam
RJ : Wow…SOBER UP ,”Doc” ! 😆
AGAIN, You’ve just displayed an “EMOTIONAL MUSLIM” in action here. 🙂 .. can u cool down for a bit and really2 try to answer my question?
I’ve already told u in relation to AN-NOOR , I want to know if The RADIANCE GLORY of LIGHT that “RADIATES” from Allah is UNCREATED & AS ALIVE as ALLAH or not!
The Dilemma is this:
(A) IF ALLAH IS THE GLORY RADIANCE LIGHT (AN-NOOR) OF HEAVEN & EARTH, WOULDN’T IT MAKE THAT THIS GLORIOUS LIGHT THAT RADIATES FROM ALLAH IS AS UNCREATED & ALIVE AS ALLAH ?
(B)IF ALLAH IS JUST THE “SOURCE” OF LIGHT BUT “NOT” THE RADIATES LIGHT THEN THE CONCLUSION WILL BE ALLAH IN THE BEGINNING DIDN’T HAVE GLORY AND THE WORST THING IS ALLAH WAS “THE LORD OF DARKNESS IN THE BEGINNING”
BECAUSE AGAIN, IF ALLAH WANNA BE CALLED LIGHT THEN THE MOST LOGICAL IMPLICATION IS : HIS RADIATE LIGHT HAS TO BE AS UNCREATED & AS ALIVE AS ALLAH…. right “Doctor”? 😎
=======================
IF ALLAH IS JUST THE SOURCE OF LIGHT THEN HE IS NOT LIGHT BUT OBVIOUSLY “LORD OF DARKNESS” COZ ALLAH’S LIGHT CAME AFTER BEING CREATED FIRST
Sorry but it seems you’ve still refused to be taught rationally and still responded emotionally, please be rational and not emotional doctor… Can u calm yourself for a bit? 😎
May Peace&Calmness may be upon u so u may able to think rationally
RJ
TO REGULAR JOHN
YOU SAID
“Your excuse shows how inadequate your capability in debating by clearly bring such presumptive material in here”
ANSWER
I have proofed my point by quoting 2 highly standard books one being TEXTBOOK OF ENGINEERING PHYSICS BY NEW AGE INTERNATIONAL PUBLISHERS and other being STEPHEN HAWKING FROM HIS BOOK ‘A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME FROM BIG BANG TO BLACK HOLES’
Instead you have not quoted any book but have quoted some internet references so it is you who is incapable not me.
YOU SAID
“The Uncreated God mingling with Created Man in incomprehensible way
The Self Subsisting God mingling with Not Self Subsisting Man in incomprehensible way
WITHOUT ANNIHILATING EACH NATURE Almost as the same as Particle-wave Duality remember?”
ANSWER
Regular John is just not willing to accept god being god and man together will be contradictory he himself says uncreated god mingling with created man self subsisting god mingling with not self subsisting man
Simple logic will point out that one cant be uncreated and created at the same time it is contradictory and one cant be self subsisting and not self subsisting together as it is contradictory.
Particle wave duality is not contradictory as i have shown but god being god and man at the same time is contradictory and is not like duality of matter.
If God is god and man at the same time then it will be contradictory as it will be having exactly opposite natures together which will negate each other like
….all knowing and not all knowing at same time
…self subsisting and not self subsisting at the same time
…eternally living and not eternally living at the same time
….all seeing and not all seeing at the same time
….all hearing and not all hearing at the same time
….all powerful and not all powerful at the same time , etc,etc
It is very obvious that it is contradictory but regular john does not think so because it is his faith if he says it is contradictory then his faith will be contradictory that is why he is still persisting in his dumbness
He says iam having kindergarten logic i will say him even kindergarten logic is enough to analyse that god being god and man the same time is contradictory .We need not have a higher logic to analyse this but regular john does not have even kindergarten logic and says it is not contradictory
YOU SAID
“So by you own admission you don’t believe that evil man will endure ETERNAL PUNISHMENT THEN? TO ENDURE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT REQUIRES SOMETHING GOT TO BE UNENDING RIGHT? & Sorry are u an Atheist?coz sounds like u don’t believe in living “without end” in heaven also!”
ANSWER
Sometimes i wonder whether this guy regular john is serious in discussing or not and whether he thinks before he post his nonsense or not
God is eternal and man is not so God being god and man at the same time will be contradictory as i said before
But regular john thinks man is eternal and what he says to support this is man will be rewarded or punished eternally in the hereafter so he is eternal ,what a dumb idiot!
Now i have to educate very basic things to this idiot regular john
Man will die and then will be raised for reward or punishment by god so man is not eternal because he will die first before the eternal life but god cannot die
So even by this example of regular john god cant be god and man together as how can he not die and die at the same time and how can he be not having beginning and having beginning that too 2 beginnings one at first birth on earth and the next in the hereafter at the same time
Eternal life in the hereafter will be given by god to man but god is eternal on his own no body gave him eternal life so god being god and man at the same time will be contradictory as how can you need nobody and need to give you life at the same time
Every time regular john tries to bring new points to show incarnation is not contradictory but each time he gets refuted but he simply cannot apply his logic as it is very clear that incarnation is contradictory to logic.
regular john just cant accept this point as it is his faith no matter how illogical and absurd it may be .It is well said that faith matters and it applies to regular john
YOU SAID
“So please logically explain to me HOW CAN AN ENTITY BE DECLARED PRESENCE IN “SOMETHING” WHEN HE ACTUALLY NOT PRESENT IN THAT SOMETHING?”
ANSWER
No commentator whether they be Christian or Jew says god is really present in the cloud of in 1 kings 8:10-12 .
The glory of presence of god which is talked about in this verse signifies as Matthew says in his commentary
“The glory of God appearing in a cloud may signify,
1. The darkness of that dispensation, in comparison with the light of the gospel, by which, with open face, we behold, as in a glass, the glory of the Lord.
2. The darkness of our present state, in comparison with the sight of God, which will be the happiness of heaven, where the Divine glory is unveiled.”
The glory which is talked about here, i never said that this glory is holy spirit or he is not.
Jews say no ,Christians say yes .My only point here is it is not god himself dwelling in the cloud and this is agreed upon by both Christians and Jews
YOU SAID
“I’ve already told u in relation to AN-NOOR , I want to know if The RADIANCE GLORY of LIGHT that “RADIATES” from Allah is UNCREATED & AS ALIVE as ALLAH or not!”
ANSWER
How many times i should tell you light of god is not separate from him that it is not a separate entity from him
The mention of ‘noor’ as you say comes in quran chapter 24 verse 35 which is as follows
” Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth”
It means Allah is the light of universe and his light is not an separate entity from him.
despite my saying you are continuously blabbering the same thing again and again because you have read this at some missionary site and not even managed to check the quran or what does it actually mean by noor but simply copy pasting these foolish nonsensical missionary claims
Cause clearly Dr.Mustafa is trying to play & twist the truth here so I’ll try to sum it up:
1). Dr.Mustafa has stated :” God is not having any end but man is having an end so how can you have no end and an end at the same time.”
IT IS A CLEAR IGNORANT&UNINTELLIGENT COMMENT CAUSE EVERY MUSLIM SHOULD KNOW THAT MAN WILL LIVE WITHOUT END EITHER IN HELL OR HEAVEN
MR.MUSTAFA TRY TO TWIST THIS CLEAR FACT BY COMMENTING “God is eternal and man is not so God being god and man at the same time will be contradictory as i said before But regular john thinks man is eternal and what he says to support this is man will be rewarded or punished eternally in the hereafter so he is eternal ,what a dumb idiot! ”
DR.MUSTAFA ACCUSED ME OF DENYING ETERNAL NATURE OF GOD WHEN IN FACT I’VE NEVER DENIED THE ETERNAL UNBEGINNING NATURE OF GOD,INSTEAD I JUST REMIND DR. MUSTAFA THAT HE WAS IN OPPOSITE WITH QURAN WHEN HE COMMENTED MAN WILL HAVE NO END SINCE IN QURAN CLEARLY TOLD MANKIND WILL SPEND UNENDING LIFE IN HELL OR HEAVEN
2.)DR. MUSTAFA HAS CLEARLY SHOWN A NARROW PERSPECTIVE ON WORD ETERNAL BY RELATING IT TO DEATH AS QUOTE “Man will die and then will be raised for reward or punishment by god so man is not eternal because he will die first before the eternal life but god cannot die”
BY GIVING DEATH AS AN EXAMPLE OF MAN AS NOT ETERNAL, DR. MUSTAFA HAS MADE ABSOLUTELY FATAL MISTAKE !!! CAUSE EVEN ISLAM TOLD THAT IN GRAVE HUMAN WILL STILL ALIVE SPIRITUALLY & EXPERIENCING TORTURE & BE ASKED QUESTION BY ANGEL OF DEATH
INSTEAD OF GIVE RATIONAL REMARK, DR.MUSTAFA IN HIS DESPERATION JUST SPILL OUT HIS “VULGAR ” AD HOMINEM ATTACK BY CALLING ME:DUMB,IDIOT, ETC. UNFORTUNATELY YOUR ATTEMPT ON MAKING THIS DEBATE AS MOCKING ARENA TO COVER YOUR IRRATIONAL REMARKS WON’T WORK, SIR!! COZ YOUR ERROR IS TOO OBVIOUS BY ANY HEALTHY MINDED REASONABLE PERSON WHO SEES IT !
SORRY DR.MUSTAFA YOUR INCAPABILITY TO ENGAGE IN RATIONAL DEBATE JUST BECOME CLEARER & CLEARER BY YOUR UNINTELLIGENT REMARK.. 😎
3)DR.MUSTAFA HAS CLEARLY CONFESSED PUBLICLY RECORDED THAT HE WAS TAKING REFERENCE FROM SOURCE THAT WAS UNACCEPTED & UNPROVEN, BUT HE JUSTIFIED IT BY SAYING IT’S OK TO DO IT SINCE HE ALSO QUOTE OTHER CREDITED SOURCE ALTHOUGH THIS CREDIBLE SOURCE HAS NO CO-RELATION WHAT SO EVER WITH THE UNPROVEN SOURCE!! WHAAAT?? R U JOKING OUT OF DESPERATION “DOCTOR” ?? 😆
What an unshamed act of dishonesty are being displayed here, IN WHAT LOGICAL BASIS COULD SUCH AN ACT BE APPROVED? Would it be rational to MIXED the valid truth & unproven questionable idea which has no correlation at all between them when engaging in a serious debate? AGAIN WHAT A SHAME TO SEE THIS INTELLECTUAL DEGENERATION BEING DISPLAYED OVER&OVER AGAIN BY “DR” MUSTAFA
4.) Dr.Mustafa previously stated that “God not in the Shekinah Cloud” was biblical “orthodox” doctrine. But AGAIN I’VE EXPOSED HIS CLAIM BY GIVING REFERENCE FROM “ANCIENT” CATHOLIC CHURCH IN ITS CATHECHISM CONCERNING GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT HOLY SPIRIT WAS ACTUALLY PRESENT IN THE CLOUD (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c3a8.htm) . AND TILL NOW DR.MUSTAFA WON’T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY UPON THIS PUBLIC EXPOSURE BY AVOIDING TO EXPLAIN WHAT DID HE MEAN WITH BIBLICAL ORTHODOX DOCTRINE OF CHRISTIANITY!!
Even from “UNORTHODOX” commentary such as Mathew Henry admit that the one who dwell in temple in Holy Spirit as quote ” In all believers God the Father dwells, as in his holy temple, by his Spirit and special grace. (http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=49&c=4&com=mhc)
But Mr.Mustafa in dishonest &shameful way TWIST Mathew Henry commentary from its true context.
EVERY CHRISTIAN KNOWS THAT HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD & THROUGH HIM GOD DWELL IN TEMPLE ! Apparently only u who keep on hallucinating as if we are not believe in that.. :lol
5) Dr.Mustafa Keep on insisting His heretical idea that Christian MUST believe in contradiction as same as believing ETERNAL EQUALS NOT ETERNAL, WHEN THE FACT IS NOT
BELIEVE THAT ETERNAL TRANSFORM INTO NOT ETERNAL IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT WITH BELIEVE IN ETERNAL CO-MINGLE WITH NON-ETERNAL
CO-MINGLING HAD BEEN MISINTERPRETED AS KIND OF MUTUAL ABSORPTION .
MUTUAL ABSORPTION AND CONCEPT OF ETERNAL TRANSFORMING INTO NON ETERNAL ARE CLEARLY HERETICAL IDEA
HAVING TWO DISTINCT NATURE IN INCOMPREHENSIBLE WAY IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT WITH “MIXING TWO NATURE IN CONTRADICTORY WAY
HAVING TWO DISTINCT NATURE IN INCOMPREHENSIBLE WAY WON’T NECESSARILY MAKING IT AS CONTRADICTION
The nearest analogy on Incarnation is Particle-Wave Duality on Light/Matter, I said the nearest because consider on its state as Metaphysical Divine phenomenon then surely it would be impossible to get any exact comparison.
ANOTHER ANALOGY IS ALL-MERCIFUL GOD & GOD WHO PUNISHES
FOLLOWING MR.MUSTAFA BLIND PARADIGM THEN IF GOD 100% ALL-MERCIFUL WHY THEN HE EVER PUNISH SINNERS OR IF HE PUNISHES WHY HAVE TO TORTURING THEM IN HELL? WOULD TORTURE & HELL RESEMBLING HIS ALL-MERCIFULNESS?
THE TRUTH IS GOD 100% ALL-MERCIFUL & 100% THE PUNISHER AS TWO DISTINCT ATTRIBUTE THAT GOD HAVE YET INCOMPREHENSIBLE
ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS ASHARII SUNNI’S DOCTRINE ABOUT QURAN AS BOTH UNCREATED& CREATED, YET THOUGH MR.MUSTAFA REJECT IT BUT DIDN’T WANT TO CONDEMN IT AS SHIRK , SINCE MR.MUSTAFA CLAIM QURAN WAS CREATED.
THEN LAST EXAMPLE IS CO-MINGLING TIMELESS GOD WITH TIME
TIME WAS CREATED BUT GOD NOT , BUT IN INCOMPREHENSIBLE WAY GOD “SEEMED” BOUNDED BY TIME
If God is Timeless wouldn’t it make HIM ALWAYS THE SAME? BUT IF GOD EVER SPEAK OR ACT THEN POSITION “BEFORE HE SPOKE” WOULD BE DIFFER FROM “POSITION AFTER HE SPOKE”.
But though it’s incomprehensible to comprehend how God Co-Mingled with Time but this is not make it necessarily as “Contradiction”
6)I’ve already explain that Incarnation is base on Tabernacle/Temple Principle (John 2:21), Jesus implied His Body as the same as Jewish Temple.
If we see in OT, people honor the tabernacle/temple they even regard it as point of worship (qibla) but not because tabernacle/temple has Black or White Stone instead because in temple reside THE PRESENCE OF GOD.
Based on Epistle to Hebrew, we all know that tabernacle/temple was just symbol for Christ, cause He is The True Perfect Temple of God:
-AS SAME AS ISRAELITE IN OT WE DON’T WORSHIP THE TEMPLE BUT STILL WE REGARD THE TEMPLE AS HOLY& POINT OUR QIBLA TOWARD HIM
-AS SAME AS THE TEMPLE NOT BECOMING SHEKINAH, NOR SHEKINAH BECOMING THE TEMPLE YET THE TWO COULD CO-MINGLED YET NOT AS PERFECT AS THE LIVING TEMPLE (CHRIST)
SO accusing christianity with heretic idea (God absorbing man nature vice versa) is totally debunked since it has no relevant with true christian doctrine, EVEN if he want to twist that 2 Nature can’t Co-Mingling &sinergizing each other STILL He can’t EMPIRICALLY proof his claim BECAUSE SOMETHING INCOMPREHENSIBLE DOESN’T NECESSARILY CAN BE REGARD AS CONTRADICTION
6). Dr.Mustafa HAD ALREADY REFUTING HIMSELF WHEN HE COMMENTED:” Dr. Mustafa : “These commentaries does not say God himself dwelt in the cloud IT IS JUST HIS PRESENCE”
AGAIN PLEASE ANSWER & NOT KEEP RUNNING AWAY FROM MY QUESTION ‘DOCTOR’, NOW FOR THE SECOND TIME I ASK U ,
” HOW CAN THE PRESENCE OF AN ENTITY BE NOTICEABLE IN SOMETHING SUCH AS CLOUD BUT IN THE SAME TIME THIS ENTITY IS NOT PRESENT IN THAT CLOUD?
PLEASE OPEN YOUR DICTIONARY FOR THE WORD “PRESENCE” AND COME WITH LOGICAL ANSWER SIR!…
.
BUT CONCERNING THIS, IN HIS OBSESSION TO “FRAME” WHILE STILL IN CONFUSION YET MR.MUSTAFA AGAIN REFUTING HIMSELF BY SAYING
“The glory which is talked about here, i never said that this glory is holy spirit or he is not. Jews say no ,Christians say yes. My only point here is it is not god himself dwelling in the cloud and this is agreed upon by both Christians and Jews”
BY THIS COMMENT MR.MUSTAFA ADMIT HIMSELF PUBLICLY THAT CHRISTIAN REGARDS THIS “DIVINE GLORY” AS HOLY SPIRIT !!! STILL IN VERY ABSURD ILLOGICAL WAY MR.MUSTAFA DENY GOD PRESENT IN CLOUD. IN THIS CASE NOT ONLY ME BUT EVERY SUNDAY SCHOOL CHILDREN CAN “EDUCATE” MR.MUSTAFA THAT “HOLY SPIRIT” IS GOD IN CHRISTIANITY . 😆
7) Ive already before stated this premise:
IF ALLAH IS LIGHT THEN THIS LIGHT THAT RADIATES FROM HIM MUST ALSO AS ALIVE & UNCREATED AS ALLAH, COZ IF NOT THEN ALLAH WAS JUST A “SOURCE” WHICH CREATE LIGHT AND THE CONCLUSION ALLAH IS THE LORD OF DARKNESS IN THE BEGINNING OF TIME
In responding my comment Dr.Mustafa said : “despite repeated telling that glory of Allah is not separate from Allah you are persisting in your dumbness and trying to implement the paganistic Christian belief of holy spirit being separate to God on Islam ….How many times i should tell you light of god is not separate from him that it is not a separate entity from him.The mention of ‘noor’ as you say comes in quran chapter 24 verse 35 which is as follows ” Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth”
From this his fallacy can be seen clearly because YOU “doctor” Mustafa has ignorantly assumed Shekinah The Holy Spirit is SEPARATED from God, this assumption occured coz YOU’RE EXAMINING GOD BY USING DISTANCE&SPACE AS POINT OF MEASUREMENT , weren’t u? 🙂 By this you’ve actually shown us your denial on the OMNIPRESENT NATURE of God For IF U TRULY BELIEVE IN OMNIPRESENT OF GOD WHICH CAN’T BE DETERMINED BY DISTANCE&SPACE THEN U SURELY WOULDN’T CAME UP WITH THAT COMMENT.
Christian believes Holy Spirit is not separate from God The Father&God The Son but we don’t measure it by taking DISTANCE&SPACE AS REFERENCE, CAUSE UNITY OF GOD IS BEYOND SPACE&DISTANCE.
Again rather answering you just keep on bringing yourself into deep trouble by your HOLLOW remarks. So please explain to me (AGAIN IF U STILL ABLE) in rational way : HOW CAN LIGHT(AN-NOOR) THAT RADIATES FROM ALLAH SHOULD NOT BE AS ALIVE & UNCREATED AS ALLAH? AGAIN PLEASE TAKE NOTICE THAT LIGHT RADIATES, IF IT DOESN’T RADIATE THEN IT WOULDN’T BE LIGHT, AGREE?
-IF THIS RADIANCE LIGHT (AN-NOOR) IS UNCREATED “BUT NOT ALIVE” THEN THE CONCLUSION IS LIVING ALLAH ALSO CONSIST OF “NON-LIVING” ESSENCE
-IF THIS RADIANCE LIGHT (AN-NOOR) IS CREATED THEN IN THE BEGINNING ALLAH WAS THE LORD OF DARKNESS BEFORE HE CREATED LIGHT
Unfortunately every Muslim who’s being faced with this dilemma can’t answer LOGICALLY but instead giving reply filled with mockery in order to cover this OBVIOUS CONTRADICTION
such as being done by Dr.Mustafa! Please learn to behave and control yourself “doctor”, and it would be better to give answer in rational way rather EMOTIONAL 😎
Still waiting for rational answer… Sorry no offense
Peace be upon you “doctor” 🙂
RJ
Regular john is having a serious problem with comprehension and he keeps bringing arguments which have been refuted this may be because he might not be reading what iam posting or just continuing in his dumbness even others who read his posts say so.
All points what he is raising i have answered them but he in his stupidity keeps bringing them.Again i will give him some lessons hope he understands this time
HE SAID
“I JUST REMIND DR. MUSTAFA THAT HE WAS IN OPPOSITE WITH QURAN WHEN HE COMMENTED MAN WILL HAVE NO END SINCE IN QURAN CLEARLY TOLD MANKIND WILL SPEND UNENDING LIFE IN HELL OR HEAVEN”
ANSWER
Man will die and then will be raised for reward or punishment by god so man is not eternal because he will die first before the eternal life but god is eternal he will not die and he is not like man who will die first then will be raised to life by god
regular john does even not know this .I will explain him once again man will die first then he will be granted eternal life so man is not eternal as he will die.
HE SAID
“BY GIVING DEATH AS AN EXAMPLE OF MAN AS NOT ETERNAL, DR. MUSTAFA HAS MADE ABSOLUTELY FATAL MISTAKE !!! CAUSE EVEN ISLAM TOLD THAT IN GRAVE HUMAN WILL STILL ALIVE SPIRITUALLY & EXPERIENCING TORTURE & BE ASKED QUESTION BY ANGEL OF DEATH”
ANSWER
I have not made any mistake you think so because you don’t have brain and with out reading any thing from the quran you comment on it the same is true for your comments on bible and other subjects.The quran clearly says everything will perish except god
Surah 55:26-27
All that dwells upon the earth is perishing, yet still abides thy Lord, majestic, splendid.
Surah 28:88
And call not upon another god with God; there is no god but He. All things perish, except Him . His is the Judgment, and unto Him you shall be returned.
Surah 25:58
And rely on the Ever-living Who dies not, and celebrate His praise; and Sufficient is He as being aware of the faults of His servants,
Quran is very clear that every thing will perish except god himself .Man is not eternal he will die then will be raised by god for eternal life.Iam surprised how a dumb idiot regular john is .He thinks man is eternal
HE SAID
“Dr.Mustafa previously stated that “God not in the Shekinah Cloud” was biblical “orthodox” doctrine. But AGAIN I’VE EXPOSED HIS CLAIM BY GIVING REFERENCE FROM “ANCIENT” CATHOLIC CHURCH IN ITS CATHECHISM CONCERNING GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT HOLY SPIRIT WAS ACTUALLY PRESENT IN THE CLOUD”
ANSWER
You have not exposed me but instead exposed your ignorance about the bible and shown your inability to comprehend simple thinks
Again i tell you that on 1 kings 8:10-12 . i did not argue about whether it is the holy spirit or not in the cloud i showed you clearly from 2 commentaries it is not god himself in the cloud .Instead of understanding this you are continuously blabbering the same thing that it is the holy spirit in the cloud when did i say say no it is not holy spirit .I only said god himself is not dwelling in the cloud and even both Jewish and christian commentators accept this.
Before commenting read first what iam saying understand it then comment .You don’t even seem to understand this simple thing but is repeating your nonsense
YOU SAID
” HOW CAN THE PRESENCE OF AN ENTITY BE NOTICEABLE IN SOMETHING SUCH AS CLOUD BUT IN THE SAME TIME THIS ENTITY IS NOT PRESENT IN THAT CLOUD?”
ANSWER
I told you already it is not god dwelling in the cloud it signifies
Mathew commentary on whole bible
“The glory of God appearing in a cloud may signify,
1. The darkness of that dispensation, in comparison with the light of the gospel, by which, with open face, we behold, as in a glass, the glory of the Lord.
2. The darkness of our present state, in comparison with the sight of God, which will be the happiness of heaven, where the Divine glory is unveiled.”
John gills exposition of the bible
“The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness;
and now was fulfilling his promise, and therefore to be considered not as a token of his displeasure, but of his gracious presence; this was done for the greater awe of the divine Majesty, and to denote the darkness of the former dispensation”
So do not again repeat your foolish question instead read some commentaries on this verse.
YOU SAID
” Dr.Mustafa Keep on insisting His heretical idea”
ANSWER
Iam not a all insisting on heretical idea .Iam very clear that believing Jesus as 100% god and 100% man the same time is contradictory and i have given enough proofs to show this is indeed contradictory .
YOU SAID
“ANOTHER ANALOGY IS ALL-MERCIFUL GOD & GOD WHO PUNISHES
FOLLOWING MR.MUSTAFA BLIND PARADIGM THEN IF GOD 100% ALL-MERCIFUL WHY THEN HE EVER PUNISH SINNERS OR IF HE PUNISHES WHY HAVE TO TORTURING THEM IN HELL? WOULD TORTURE & HELL RESEMBLING HIS ALL-MERCIFULNESS?
THE TRUTH IS GOD 100% ALL-MERCIFUL & 100% THE PUNISHER AS TWO DISTINCT ATTRIBUTE THAT GOD HAVE YET INCOMPREHENSIBLE”
ANSWER
This is a clear example of regular john not reading what i post but persisting in his stupidity.I told you already in my previous post that god not showing his grace to some or not being merciful to some does not devoid him of his attribute of being merciful he will still be merciful. It is the grades of his grace that he is more merciful to some and not merciful to others .
Again,God limiting his ability (like not showing his mercy to some) will not make him devoid of having that ability, still God will be having it ,but man on the other hand will have limit on his capabilities no matter how much he has it .So how can one be having limitless ability and having limited ability at the same time so 100% god and 100% man together is contradiction
A kid understands this but regular john is not even having the brain of a kid
YOU SAID
“HOW CAN LIGHT(AN-NOOR) THAT RADIATES FROM ALLAH SHOULD NOT BE AS ALIVE & UNCREATED AS ALLAH? AGAIN PLEASE TAKE NOTICE THAT LIGHT RADIATES, IF IT DOESN’T RADIATE THEN IT WOULDN’T BE LIGHT, AGREE?
-IF THIS RADIANCE LIGHT (AN-NOOR) IS UNCREATED “BUT NOT ALIVE” THEN THE CONCLUSION IS LIVING ALLAH ALSO CONSIST OF “NON-LIVING” ESSENCE
-IF THIS RADIANCE LIGHT (AN-NOOR) IS CREATED THEN IN THE BEGINNING ALLAH WAS THE LORD OF DARKNESS BEFORE HE CREATED LIGHT
ANSWER
What a mindless idiot iam dealing over here . In spite of repeating again and again he brings his nonsensical questions despite explaining them again and again ma be he does not read what i post
again i say what is the noor in quran 24:35
” Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth”
Ibn kathir commentary on this verse
“Light is something which makes things visible; which is itself manifest and helps make other things manifest. The human mind conceives light in this very sense. Absence of light is termed darkness, invisibility and obscurity. On the other hand, when there is visibility and things become exposed to view, man says there is light. Allah has been called Light’ in this basic sense, and not in the sense of a beam of light which travels at the speed of 186,000 miles per second and stimulates the optic nerve through the retina. This conception of light has nothing to do with the reality of the meaning for which human mind has coined this word; rather the word light is used for all those lights which we experience in this physical world. All human words used for Allah are used in their basic sense and meaning, and not with reference to their physical connotation. For instance, when, the word sight is used with respect to Allah, it does not mean that Allah has an eye like men and animals with which He sees. Similarly when we say that Allah hears or grips or grasps, it does not mean that He hears through ears, or grips or grasps with the hand like us. These words are used in a metaphorical sense and only a man of very poor intelligence would have the misconception that hearing or seeing or grasping is not possible except in the limited and specific sense in which we experience it. Similarly it will be shortsightedness to interpret the word light in the sense of physical light rays emanating from a luminous body and affecting the retina. This word is not applicable to Allah in its limited sense, but in its absolute sense. That is, He alone in this universe is the real and prime cause of manifestation, otherwise there is nothing but darkness here. Everything which gives light and illuminates other things has received its light from Him; it has no light of its own.
The word light is also used for knowledge, and ignorance is termed as darkness. Allah is the Light of the universe in this sense too, because the knowledge of reality and of right guidance can be obtained from Him alone; without having recourse to His Light, there will be nothing but darkness of ignorance and the resultant vice and wickedness in the world”.
P.Ali commentary on this verse
“Allah is the light through which every created being comes into evidence, and every being is guided toward the destination where it should reach. To reach to the destination of salvation, bliss and satisfaction it has to do that which guidance points out”.
Dont repeat your foolish question again it shows how brain less you are and how less knowledgeable you are on Islam and even on the bible doing nothing but posting internet references.
YOU SAID
“Unfortunately every Muslim who’s being faced with this dilemma can’t answer LOGICALLY but instead giving reply filled with mockery in order to cover this OBVIOUS CONTRADICTION
such as being done by Dr.Mustafa!”
ANSWER
there is no contradiction the only thing obvious here is how foolish you are and how ignorant you are neither you have read the verse nor you know what it means and what Muslim scholars say about this but you comment on this continuing in your stupidity
dear brother mustafa,
no matter how many times you give standard references or refute him,mr john will come with silly and nonsence arguements repeatedly.
he is a showboy like samoum.
i am certain he will come with same arguements and by the way he is good at copy paste
dear brother john,
Is Allah Forgiving or Revengeful?
Question
The Qur’an says several times that Allah is most Merciful and Forgiving but also says many times that He gives severe punishment. Is He Forgiving or Revengeful?
Answer
1. Allah is most Merciful
The Qur’an says several times that Allah is the most Merciful. In fact all the 114 Surahs i.e. chapters of the Glorious Qur’an except for Surah Taubah chapter 9, begin with the beautiful formula, Bismillah-hir-Rahman-nir-Rahim, which means, “In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful”.
2. Allah is Forgiving
The Glorious Qur’an mentions in several verses including Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 25 and Surah Maidah, chapter 5 verse 74:
“And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
3. Allah gives severe punishment to the deserving
Allah besides being Merciful and Forgiving is also strict in giving punishment to the deserving. The Qur’an mentions in several verses that Allah will give severe punishment to the unbelievers and rejecters of faith. He will give punishment to all those who disobey Him. Several verses of the Qur’an describe the various types of severe punishment that Allah will give in hell to all those who disobey.
“Those who reject our Signs, we shall soon cast into the Fire; as often as their skins
Are roasted through, we shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise”.
[Al-Qur’an 4:56]
4. Allah is Just
The question is, whether Allah is forgiving or revengeful? An important point to be noted is that Allah besides being Merciful and Forgiving, He also has to give severe punishment to the deserving wicked or evil people, because He is also Just. The Qur’an mentions in Surah Nisa: “Allah is never unjust in the least degree”.
[Al-Qur’an 4:40]
It is further mentioned in Surah Al-Ambiya:
“We shall set up scales of justice for the day of Judgement, so that not a soul will be dealt with unjustly in the least. And if there be (no more than) the weight of a mustard seed, we will bring it (to account): and enough are we to take account”.
[Al-Qur’an 21:47]
5. Example: Teacher forgives a student who copies in the examination
If during an examination, a student copies and the teacher who supervises in the examination catches the student red-handed, the teacher says that he is very merciful and kind and forgives him and allows him to continue copying. Those students who have worked hard for the examination will not call the teacher merciful and kind but will call him unjust. This merciful act of the teacher will encourage the other students to also copy. If all the teachers are merciful and kind and allow the students to copy then no student will ever study for examinations and all will pass with flying colours by copying. The theoretical results of the examinations will be excellent in which all the students will pass with first class and distinction but practically these students will be a failure in life. The whole purpose of the examination would be defeated.
6. This Life is a Test for the Hereafter
The life in this world is a test for the Hereafter. The Qur’an says in Surah Al Mulk: “He who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed; and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving”.
[Al-Qur’an 67:2]
7. If Allah forgives all and punishes none, who will obey him?
If Allah (swt) forgives each and every human being and punishes no one, then why should the human beings obey the command of Allah (swt)? I do agree that no one will go to hell, but this world would become hell to live in. If all human beings are going to go to heaven then what is the purpose and use of the human beings to come to this world, this life cannot be called a test for the hereafter.
8. Allah only forgives if a person repents
Allah (swt) only forgives if a person repents. The Qur’an says in Surah Al-Zumar, chapter 39 verse 53-55:
“Say: – O my servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
“Turn ye to your Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (will), before the penalty comes on you – after that ye shall not be helped.”
“And follow the best of (the courses) revealed to you from your Lord, before the penalty comes on you – of a sudden, while ye perceive not!”
[Al-Qur’an 39:53-55]
There are four criteria for repentance: First, agree that the act is wrong. Secondly, stop it immediately. Thirdly, never do it again in future. And lastly, compensate for the loss if caused to anyone.
answer taken from muslim website.now rest in peace
dear brother john,
i want to see debate between your great christian scholars with the likes of paul williams,shabir ally,zakir naik etc.hope you can arrange it
Peace be upon you In Jesus Christ
Dr.Mustafa;
I would again sum up that you may understand your own contradiction :
1. Dr.Mustafa previously commented “God is not having any end but man is having an end so how can you have no end and an end at the same time….Man will die and then will be raised for reward or punishment by god so man is not eternal because he will die first before the eternal life but god cannot die””
RJ: I have just reminded him that even Islam admit man will live without no end, but you still childishly insist that Islam never said that and relating it with all men will die. Of course all men will die, but it’s just their physic & not spiritual, again I want to bring you this problem:
DO U BELIEVE MAN WILL TOTALLY BEING ANNIHILATE (SPIRITUALLY &PHYSICALLY) WHEN DIED, IF SO HOW CAN HE STILL BE “ALIVE” & COMMUNICATING IN GRAVE WITH ANGEL OF DEATH, THEN? 🙂
And please don’t hide your incapability to debate by throwing ad hominem mockery such as :dumb; mindless idiot, etc., have your mother ever teach you any manner? please behave properly doctor! coz your mockery won’t in anyway save you from being exposed 😎
==========
2. Dr.mustafa said: “Iam not a all insisting on heretical idea .Iam very clear that believing Jesus as 100% god and 100% man the same time is contradictory and i have given enough proofs to show this is indeed contradictory.”
RJ: My condolence for u doctor, have u ever read my explanation in clear mind& non prejudice heart? I’ve already stated something incomprehensible doesn’t necessarily making it contradictory
For instance in TILL NOW YOU KEEP ON REFUSING TO CONDEMNED AS SHIRK THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIM (ASHARI&MATURIDI) THAT BELIEVE SPEECH OF QURAN AS BOTH UNCREATED &CREATED, why are you so double standard doctor ?Pathetically your own doctrine of quran in fact can be considered as “minority view” 😆
Another example: How God as Timeless entity co-mingled with time. Surely God is beyond &above time so He shouldn’t have a Past, coz if he had then He can be considered “bound/restricted” by his creation (time). But when God interact with his creation, as He speaks or acts it seems He sort of bounded by time cause logically if God speak then obviously it would create a state of God not speaking and state where God is speaking. State of God not speaking can be looked as PAST, but we all know that God don’t have a past coz He is Timeless entity. To really determine how God act in time while keeping his Timeless Nature is incomprehensible to be determined by human mind, but again it’s not necessarily to define this incomprehensibility as contradictory.
==================================
3. Dr.Mustafa : “Again,God limiting his ability (like not showing his mercy to some) will not make him devoid of having that ability, still God will be having it ,but man on the other hand will have limit on his capabilities no matter how much he has it .So how can one be having limitless ability and having limited ability at the same time so 100% god and 100% man together is contradiction”
RJ :Can you take a minute to ponder on your own answers? I’ve already said Incarnation was not Mutual Absorption between God&Man , but you just blindly accusing us as if God annihilate His ability when becoming man. Apparently also u still blindly neglected the Temple Principal (John 2:21)
In OT Israelite regard theTemple as point of worship (Qibla)
In NT we christian regard Jesus Christ as Perfect Living Temple & point of worship
In OT God dwell in Temple without God becoming The temple vice versa
In NT God dwell perfectly &Eternally in Christ Humanity without His Humanity becoming God vice versa
=============================
4.Dr.Mustafa said : “.I only said god himself is not dwelling in the cloud and even both Jewish and christian commentators accept this…..Before commenting read first what iam saying understand it then comment .You don’t even seem to understand this simple thing but is repeating your nonsense”
RJ: Unfortunately for you I’m also taking reference from your references (Mathew Henry &John Gill)
-Mathew Henry said ” In all believers God the Father dwells, as in his holy temple, by his Spirit and special grace. (http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=49&c=4&com=mhc)
this is an affirmative statement which notify us God dwell in Temple as in 1 Kings 8:10-12 BY HIS SPIRIT
From reading IN CONTEXT definitely Mathew Henry was speaking of Holy Spirit when he talked about Divine Glory that dwell within the Temple
-John Gill said,”in allusion to Solomon’s temple; which as it was a type of the natural, so of the mystical body of Christ. There is an agreement between that and the church of Christ, in its maker, matter, situation, magnificence, and holiness; and the church is said to be the temple of God, because it is of his building, and in which he dwells: what the apostle here says of the saints at Corinth, the Jewish doctors say of the Israelites (n), , “the temple of the Lord are ye”; and which being usually said of them in the apostle’s time, he may refer unto; and much better apply to the persons he does, of which the indwelling of the Spirit was the evidence:
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you: in particular members, as a spirit of regeneration, sanctification, faith, and adoption, and as the earnest and pledge of their future glory; in their ministers to fit and qualify them for their work, and carry them through it; and in the whole church, to bless the word and ordinances, for their growth, comfort, and establishment. This furnishes out a considerable proof of the deity and distinct personality of the Spirit, since this is mentioned as an evidence of the saints being the temple of God, which would not be one, if the Spirit was not God, who dwells therein; and since a temple is sacred to deity, and therefore if he dwells here as in a temple, he must dwell here as God; and since he is mentioned as distinct from God, whose Spirit he is, and dwelling, a personal action is ascribed to him, he must be a distinct divine person. “(http://gill.biblecommenter.com/1_corinthians/3.htm)
Please I humbly plea to sincere honesty in reading Mathew Henry&John Gill in WHOLE CONTEXT and not as you partially quoted before..thank u 😎
not only that but your false claim that u base your view on biblical orthodoxy has been easily debunked since I’ve already present you the evidence of Shekinah in the cloud being regarded as Holy Spirit by Catholic Church (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c3a8.htm &(http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html)
============================
5 .In continuation from problem no.2, ln all do respect please be gentleman at least once, “doctor” , cause you yourself said ,”“These commentaries does not say God himself dwelt in the cloud IT IS JUST HIS PRESENCE”
So AGAIN I ASK YOU; HOW CAN THE PRESENCE OF AN ENTITY BE NOTICEABLE IN SOMETHING SUCH AS CLOUD BUT IN THE SAME TIME THIS ENTITY IS NOT PRESENT IN THAT CLOUD?”
Please don’t hide in dishonest way by twisting Matthew Henry&John Gill commentary, since I’ve already given you what their true opinion is about Holy Spirit God who truly dwell in the temple
You yourself after repeated intensive “interrogation” finally admit that Christian does regard the divine glory as holy spirit as quoted “The glory which is talked about here, i never said that this glory is holy spirit or he is not. Jews say no ,Christians say yes”
Please if u may kindly explain WHY YOU SAY CHRISTIANS SAY YES? what is the meaning of your sentence,sir?
And may I know as far as your observation , does ever majority of Christians not admit on Holy Spirit as God ?..please answer if u kindly would 🙂
==================
For An-Noor (allah as the light)
Thank you for your long reply ,but i see u kind of mix up Ibn Kathir interpretation by adding sentence such as” 186,000 miles/sc” 😆
BTW from Ibn Kathir interpretation with no addition version I receive not one but couple of alternatives
a) It can interpreted that An-Noor can be interpreted literally as “LIGHT”
“(Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.) He is controlling their affairs and their stars and sun and moon.” As-Suddi said concerning the Ayah:(Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.) by His Light the heavens and earth are illuminated. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said: “When the Messenger of Allah got up to pray at night, he would say: (O Allah, to You be praise, You are the Sustainer of heaven and earth and whoever is in them. To You be praise, You are the Light of the heavens and the earth and whoever is in them. ) It was narrated that Ibn Mas`ud said, “There is no night or day with your Lord; the Light of the Throne comes from the Light of His Face.”
b) It can be also be interpreted figuratively as knowledge
“(The parable of His Light) There are two views concerning the meaning of the pronoun (His). The first is that it refers to Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, meaning that the parable of His guidance in the heart of the believer is
(Source : http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2423&Itemid=79)
Referring to explanation above, please tell me concerning Light of allah that Shining from His face , is it CREATED &ALIVE OR NOT?
Cause if This Glorious Light that shine is created then allah was Lord of Darkness in beginning, but If This Gloriuos in uncreated yet it tells us that Allah essence consist also with Non-Living substance.
Again if this Shinning Light is not literal then would it make allah also Lord of Darkness ?
P.s btw surely ought to know the word shine right? please find dictionary if you have any difficulties in finding the meaning of this word 😎
Please if u kindly explain…
Peace In The Name of Isa al-Masih
R.J
According to the oxfords dictionary the meaning of eternal is without beginning or end; lasting for ever; denoting or relating to that which is without beginning and end; valid for all time; essentially unchanging. Man clearly does not fulfill that and is not eternal .Nobody or no book says that man is eternal since he lives on spiritually .Let me quote what Quran says: Surah 55:26-27“All that dwells upon the earth is perishing, yet still abides thy Lord, majestic, splendid”. Same repeated in Surah 28:88 and Surah 25:58 .Lets see what bible says: Genesis 21:33 “Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called upon the name of the LORD, the Eternal God” .Same repeated in Psalm 41:13; Psalm 90:2;Psalm 93:2;Psalm 102:27;Isaiah 40:28;Jeremiah 10:10; Deuteronomy 32:40;Deuteronomy 33:27;1 Timothy 1:17;1 Timothy 6:16. Lets see what the bible says about Jesus. It says he was born :Matthew 1:16 “and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ” Same repeated in Matthew 2:1;Luke 11:27.The bible also says he died :Matthew 27:50 “And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.” Same in repeated in Romans 8:34.The Christians believe that Jesus died. Since God is eternal, this means God CANNOT die. If Christians say that he is both human and God at the same time it like saying he died and he cannot die at the same time that is inherently contradictory and not possible. God being God and man at the same time is contradictory not just incomprehensible. According to oxford dictionary contradictory means: mutually opposed or inconsistent; Logic (of two propositions) so related that one and only one must be true. Keeping this in view Jesus being God and man at the same time is contradictory as it will be having exactly opposite natures together which will contradict each other like.Through some examples you are trying to say that God can be God and man at the same time without contradiction but this is where you go wrong:Past, present, future is for us not for God he is beyond that .God when he spoke in time is itself a wrong statement,it is for us that time is a factor not for god. Any action of us is described in time because we are bounded by time .It does not apply to god there is no past, present ,future for him. It can be put in this way : God spoke to man . For our understanding it can be said he spoke at a particular time because we are bounded by it .Time should be mentioned to describe our actions not Gods.Coming to your next example i have already proofed you that God being not merciful to some does not mean that he is not having mercy because he will still be having mercy and will not be devoid of it .It is not that he is all merciful and not merciful at the same time because he is still merciful even when he is punishing it is just that he is punishing some on their actions and even then he will not be completely devoid of his mercy at that time and become not merciful as you said.But you are citing this to show that God can be man without annihilation of his self again you are wrong because God becoming man and being god and man at the same time will be exactly opposite as i have shown above and is not similar to this example you gave because god limiting his mercy will not devoid him of that but man on the other hand has limits on his abilities so God becoming man is contradictory because it is contradiction to have limitless capabilities and limited capabilities at the same time. You said “In NT God dwell in Christ Humanity without becoming Human or Human becoming God”. This is contradictory but you are not at all recognizing it because God dwelling in man is like ..eternality dwelling in mortality; limitlessness dwelling in limitedness; self sufficient dwelling in not self sufficient etc
Regular john just does not want to accept the truth when shown in a logical way and even textual evidence is of no value to him he just continues in his stupidity which is very obvious even to other people here
Every time his arguments are answered he keeps bringing new points to be answered again.
He never reads what we post but is in a very hurry to post his arguments which are illogical and dumb as his faith .
He never acknowledges proofs given to him from the scripture or for that matter any other book .He never reads them nor ponder over them he just see some internet references and copies them and pastes them here without even checking them whether they are telling the truth or not
CONCERNING YOUR QUESTION ABOUT LIGHT OF ALLAH
I have answered you many times even by giving references from ibn kathir and p.ali commentary that it is not literal and explained to you what it means if you do not understand please read it above
Just don’t stubbornly persist in your dumb stupidness and think you have answered anything by copy pasting things from other site with out reading and verifying them .The sites which you are quoting are like you they too just copy paste from other sites with out reading .
To Dr.Mustafa
It seems I can’t fully post my reply i this forum, i hope its just the system & not intentional, from your argument I have made 7 points rebuttal, I’ve managed to post 3 rebuttals in http://thedebateinitiative.com/2009/10/26/mdi-debate-jihad-on-trial-is-jihad-justifiable/#comments
It left with 4 rebuttals that haven’t been allowed to be posted here! i hope this forum still honor the right to response and answer in spirit of truthfulness
if you don’t mind i can send you my rebuttal via email, of course if you sincerely honest want to discuss about the truth…
Thanks RJ
ANSWER TO REGULAR JOHN QUESTIONS AND SOME BASICS TO HIM
He says iam childish to believe that man is not eternal.He thinks man is eternal just because he lives spiritually ! .He is no doubt the biggest idiot i have ever met or talked to
Iam ashamed to teach simple things to him even kids does not argue foolish things like him.
According to the oxfords dictionary is the meaning of eternal
1)without beginning or end; lasting for ever
2)denoting or relating to that which is without beginning and end, regarded as an attribute of God
3)valid for all time; essentially unchanging
Man clearly does not fulfill that and is not eternal .Nobody or no book says that man is eternal since he lives on spiritually
Let me quote him again what Quran says
Surah 55:26-27
All that dwells upon the earth is perishing, yet still abides thy Lord, majestic, splendid.
Surah 28:88
And call not upon another god with God; there is no god but He. All things perish, except Him . His is the Judgment, and unto Him you shall be returned.
Surah 25:58
And rely on the Ever-living Who dies not, and celebrate His praise; and Sufficient is He as being aware of the faults of His servants,
Lets see what bible says
Genesis 21:33:
“Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called upon the name of the LORD, the Eternal God.”
Psalm 41:13:
“Praise be to the LORD, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting.”
Psalm 90:2:
“Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.”
Psalm 93:2:
“Your throne was established long ago; you are from all eternity.”
Psalm 102:27:
“But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”
Isaiah 40:28:
“Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth.”
Jeremiah 10:10:
“But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.”
Deuteronomy 32:40:
“I lift my hand to heaven and declare: As surely as I live forever.”
Deuteronomy 33:27:
“The eternal God is your refuge and underneath are the everlasting arms. He will drive out your enemy before you, saying, ‘Destroy him!'”
1 Timothy 1:17:
“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
1 Timothy 6:16:
“who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.”
In the Hebrew Bible, the term for “eternal” is: ow lam which means:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
Greek word used for “eternal” in the Bible is: “aion,” which means:
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
Lets see what the bible says about Jesus
It says he was born
Matthew 1:16:
“and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ”
Matthew 2:1:
“After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem.”
Luke 11:27:
“As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
The bible also says he died
Matthew 27:50:
“And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.”
Romans 8:34:
“Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died – more than that, who was raised to life is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.”
The Christians therefore believe that Jesus died. Since God is eternal, this means God CANNOT die, which the Christians claim Jesus did. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God otherwise the Christians would have to agree that God contradicted himself. God cannot be: “ever-living” and “dead” simultaneously. Some Christians will reply by saying: “Jesus died, but was alive in other way. The soul was alive, but the body was dead.”
If Jesus died and is “fully God,” that means he must have been FULLY dead. According to some of the Christians, they claim the “soul” was alive. This means that “part” of God was dead, while the other part was “alive” simultaneously. Both cannot take place at the same time. If Christians insist that “part” of God (soul) was alive while the body was dead, that means they’re implying God is made up of entities like a jigsaw puzzle. Christians do NOT believe this, so to say that the soul was alive and body was dead is irrational and absurd. Moreover, if the Christian wants on insist that Jesus died and is “fully God,” then they also have to agree even the “soul” was also dead, other God would not be “fully dead,” which is what Christians believe in. Hence, the Christian has no way out of this, because if Jesus is “fully God,” he must have been “fully dead,” which the Christians do not assert, which contradicts their belief.
To conclude, we have seen here that Jesus does not fit the attribute of being “eternal.” If he did, he would not have had a beginning through birth, nor would he have died (which the Bible claims). In combination, this proves that Jesus is not God, according to the Bible.
If Christians say that he is both human and God at the same time it like saying he died and he cannot die at the same time that is inherently contradictory and not possible
God being God and man at the same time is contradictory not just incomprehensible. Just by you saying it is not contradictory does not make it logical or not contradictory it is indeed logically and scientifically contradictory
According to oxford dictionary contradictory means
1)mutually opposed or inconsistent:
2)Logic (of two propositions) so related that one and only one must be true.
Keeping this in view Jesus being God and man at the same time is contradictory as it will be having exactly opposite natures together which will negate each other like
….all knowing and not all knowing at same time
…self subsisting and not self subsisting at the same time
…eternally living and not eternally living at the same time
….all seeing and not all seeing at the same time
….all hearing and not all hearing at the same time
….all powerful and not all powerful at the same time , etc,etc
IT IS INDEED CONTRADICTORY AND ILLOGICALITY AND UNSCIENTIFIC
No matter how much you deny it is illogical and contradictory.You deny it just because it is your faith and to protect it you say it is not contradictory
Through some examples you are trying to say that God can be God and man at the same time without contradiction but this is where you go wrong
Past ,present,future is for us not for God he is beyond that .God when he spoke in time is itself a wrong statement ,it is for us that time is a factor not for god.Any action of us is described in time because we are bounded by time .It does not apply to god there is no past, present ,future for him.It can be put in this way : God spoke to man .
Then for our understanding it can be said he spoke at a particular time because we are bounded by it .Time should be mentioned to describe our actions not Gods
Coming to your next example i have already proofed you that God being not merciful to some does not mean that he is not having mercy because he will still be having mercy and will not be devoid of it .It is not that he is all merciful and not merciful at the same time because he is still merciful even when he is punishing it is just that he is punishing some on their actions and even then he will not be completely devoid of his mercy at that time and become not merciful as you said.
But you are citing this to show that God can be man without annihilation of his self again you are wrong because God becoming man and being god and man at the same time will be exactly opposite as i have shown above and is not similar to this example you gave because god limiting his mercy will not devoid him of that but man on the other hand has limits on his abilities so God becoming man is contradictory because it is contradiction to have limitless capabilities and limited capabilities at the same time
This is exactly contradictory but you are not at all recognizing it because God dwelling in man is like
eternality dwelling in mortality
limitlessness dwelling in limitedness
self sufficient dwelling in not self sufficient etc,etc:
CONCERNING YOUR QUESTION ABOUT LIGHT OF ALLAH
I have answered you many times even by giving references from ibn kathir and p.ali commentary that it is not literal and explained to you what it means if you do not understand please read it above
I HAVE ANSWERED ALL YOUR QUESTIONS YOU JUST DON’T WANT TO ACCEPT IT .IF STILL YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND PLEASE LOOK AND READ MY POSTS ABOVE
Yes, I have noticed something fundamentally flawed the way this “regular john” persona write his ideas and replies. Long Incoherent and irrelevant and contradictory sentences with insulting tones and silly smileys.
Im under suspicion he just “copy and paste” some hate monger anti Islam sites and just post it here without actually reading it.
I am amazed if he truly think he really can make people buy his idea to worship a mere human.
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Why is it so difficult to believe that God is God, Humans are Humans, and God never become Human, as it is impossible for humans to become God.
This “Regular John” does not make sense at all but he thinks Muslims will eventually become idol worshiper 😀
Only paganistic idolatrous belief, to confuse God with human beings, either that God becomes human, or that humans become God. The Pharaoh, the Antiochus
God teaches us that “…for I am God and not a man.” (Hosea 11:9)
Asalamualaikum wr.wb In The Name of Isa Al Masih All-Merciful, All -Gracious
Hello Ric 🙂
Ric said : Why is it so difficult to believe that God is God, Humans are Humans, and God never become Human, as it is impossible for humans to become God.
RJ: FYI , I totally agree with you, that’s what I’m saying all along to every Muslim here
What we Christian meant as “becoming” is actually “Incarnating” and it can be explained based on Tabernacle/temple Principle (John 2:21)
In OT God dwell in Temple, but in NT God dwell perfectly in A Living Perfect Temple called Christ.
In OT people regard the Temple as point of worship (Qibla)
In NT we regard Jesus Body as point of worship(Qibla)
In OT God dwell in Temple without becoming The Temple or Temple becoming God
In NT God dwell in Christ Humanity without becoming Human or Human becoming God
Btw The concept of of defining an entity as both Eternal & Not Eternal or Both Uncreated &Created actually being propagated by MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS , in their view of Speech of Quran. Unfortunately the risk to be criticized as contradiction in this matter(Double Nature of Quran) is far more highly probable because there are no real explanation in quran in how can Speech of Quran have this two nature.
I hope u may be enlightened by this
Peace
Sincerely R.J
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Hi RJ,
“Become” and “incarnate” means technically the same thing. Incarnation is paganistic concept.
God will do Godly things.
You believe in Jesus as sacrifices. Who died on the cross? Was it Jesus the god, or was it Jesus-the human?
1) If it was Jesus the god, God can’t die, can He?. 😀
2) If it was Jesus the human, then you accept a human sacrifice. This is blasphempous concept the very concept God hates:
;take heed to thyself that thou be not ensnared to follow them, after that they are destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying: ‘How used these nations to serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.’
Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God; for every abomination to the LORD, which He hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters do they burn in the fire to their gods.
[Deuteronomy 12:30-31]
Remember when God tested Abraham (as) to sacrifice his only son (at that time) in Genesis. But by God’s grace, the sacrifice was rejected. The moral story is God taught Abraham (as) in a *graphic way* that He did not accept human sacrifice.
With this clear message pity you believe that God changed His mind, and required human sacrifice a pagan practices, and pagan beliefs.
Peace be upon those who follow guidance
YOU SAID
“In NT God dwell perfectly &Eternally in Christ Humanity without His Humanity becoming God vice versa”
ANSWER
This is exactly what is contradictory as according to oxford dictionary contradictory means
1)mutually opposed or inconsistent:
2)Logic (of two propositions) so related that one and only one must be true.
Because God dwelling in man is like
eternality dwelling in mortality
limitlessness dwelling in limitedness
self sufficient dwelling in not self sufficient etc,etc:
These are contradictory attributes and cant be together as either you are eternal or not eternal not both together ;limitless or limited not both together etc.
CHRISTIAN FAITH IS CONTRADICTORY ACCORDING TO OXFORD DICTIONARY AND IT IS ILLOGICAL AND UNSCIENTIFIC
Now regular john despite seeing the proof just don’t persist by saying it is not contradictory i have clearly shown you it is indeed contradictory
Asalamualaikum wr.wb
In The Name of Isa Al-Masih ,The All-Merciful, The All-Gracious
Hi, Ric
When you think in narrow way, everything can be considered as pagan, my friend 😎 (e.g kissing black stone or Salafist concept of “JISM” =Allah having a body)
…………………………
David said :If it was Jesus the god, God can’t die, can He?
RJ: Of course His God Nature couldn’t & didn’t die
David said:If it was Jesus the human, then you accept a human sacrifice. This is blasphempous concept the very concept God hates
RJ: Of course we as TRUE ABRAHAM FOLLOWER reject any form of “regular” human sacrifice 🙂
Those OT verse clearly shows that no “regular” human are worthy to be sacrifice for atoning of sin, in regard to concept of gradual revelation where God revealed the truth progressively to His people, in their stage of revelation God told the Israelite that He rejected human sacrifice, but later in NT He finally told us why, It’s because The ONLY suitable perfect MAN as sacrifice had already been ordained since the beginning of time (Romans 3:25, 1 Peter 1:19-20, Rev 13:8).
Btw thank you for mentioning Abraham, FYI if you notice in Genesis 22:7-8; And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself A LAMB for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Abraham said God will provide Himself A LAMB (Hebrew ha-sheh)
But apparently turned out God provided A RAM (Hebrew a-yil), this indicate what Abraham put on his faith for hadn’t been realized yet! And surely we all know It was being fulfilled in NT by the Sacrifice of The Lamb of God.
Interestingly in Quran where this story is also told, in Surah Saffat 37:101-107 stated : “We ransomed his son with a mighty sacrifice.”
Now ransom (arabic=fadiya) means to ransomed back in exchange for something else, and word mighty(arabic=ajeem) means great . Now when you buy something it’s also mean you value something that you buy, apparently quran tells us that value of Abraham’s son is so Great that his son will be ransomed with a GREAT sacrifice.
The problem here for Muslim, “Was the value of Abraham’s son is as same as a goat ?
In Islam mankind is called “ashraful makhlukhat” = The Best of Creation, if that so then why valuing a man as same as a goat ? 🙂
Peace be unto those who’s humbling themselves to the truth
Sincerely
In The Name of God the creator of Muhammad rasulullah and Isa Al-Masih ,The All-Merciful, The All-Gracious
Hi Rjhon,
Funny you cant give clear answer on my question was it jesus-the god or jesus the human which died in the cross?
I pity you your blind faith prevent you to realize how erroneous your concept of this human-god/demigod or whatever…
As for salafi belief being this and that, no sorry, I personally went to the Kaaba seeing this the salafi ashkar repelling hajj jama’ah who want to try get near the hajar aswad they consider that as unlawful/haram ritual.
Muslims dont have disagreement regarding the nature of God like you do in christendom issues like filoque, the Co-demprix , The issue of the Holy Spirit coming forth or proceeding from the Father only or from the Father and Son etc.
Yes, there are certain elements in Islamic sects who built their creed upon the language and terminology of the Trinitarian Philosophers such as substance (jawhar) accident (‘arad) and the indivisible element (al-Jawhar al-Fard)]
But still this is alien to Islam and considerd heretical. Muslims in generral never ever delved into this Kalaam (theological speculation) like the trinitiarianists. We simply dismissed this as bid’ah of the Mutakallimoon which took from the influence of triniarin Hellenistic Philosophy not the genuine monotheism.
Cheer up man :d dont just read from hateful islamophobes missionary literature.
God love you. He does not demand sacrifice on the contrary He fogives.
Amen
Asalamualaikum wr.wb In The Name of Isa Al-Masih The All-Merciful, The All-Gracious
Hello Ric 🙂
Ric accused ,” Funny you cant give clear answer on my question was it jesus-the god or jesus the human which died in the cross?”
RJ: Sorry for thinking that you have a normal capability to understand plain simple language my friend..I would quote my previous answer :
1) “Of course His God Nature couldn’t & didn’t die”, may I interpret it for u again : It means Jesus The Logos didn’t die.
2) “It’s because The ONLY suitable perfect MAN as sacrifice had already been ordained since the beginning of time ” ==> It means Jesus Humanity Died.
I’ve already written it and sadly you’ve just seemed neglecting it, I hope it’s not because the truth is piercing your heart though.
===================================
Ric said : “dont just read from hateful islamophobes missionary literature”
RJ : I think that’s your prejudice speaking , bro ! 😆
Contrary to your purely prejudice accusation , concerning these case in particular, I’m actually acknowledging it because in my country Salafist and Ashariites are insulting & mocking each other concerning these matters.
As again I’ll emphasize my point before, If you have a narrow way of thinking then you certainly can accuse anything as paganism my friend 😎
You’re correct and just proving my very point when you say Salafist don’t allow their followers (& even forcing other madhhabs) to get near the black stone, even when actually other Sunnis madhhab (Ashariites & Maturidis) believe kissing black stone is sacred ritual.
Salafist in their “narrow way of thinking ” consider this ritual as pagan.
Funny thing though, Ashariites & Maturidis also have their “narrow way of thinking” , this time is their turn to accuse Salafist as influenced by paganism with Salafist belief on “JISM” or Allah has a form. Can u see how funny the situation become? These two Sunnis are just “paganizing” each other 😆 (sorry for my english btw)
Regarding your seemingly questionable ability in understanding plain simple statement, I’ll say it again : If you have a narrow way of thinking then you certainly can accuse anything as paganism my friend 😀
God Loves you bro, He is not demanding any sacrifice from you because He had already provided the sacrifice from Himself, as also being written in Quran about The Great Ransomed that God provided in replace of Abraham’s son==>Surah Saffat 37:101-107 : “We ransomed his son with a mighty sacrifice.”
Logically & Ethically speaking the value of human can’t be compared with a goat, it would need greater or at least at equal value to ransom a man, but quran clearly stated the ransom is Greater/Mighty. Can you give other suitable candidate other than Isa Al-Masih ?
Peace be unto those who’s humbling themselves to the truth
Sincerely
In The Name of God the creator of Muhammad rasulullah and Isa Al-Masih nabiullah ,The One and only All-Merciful, The All-Gracious
So RJhon believe that it was Jesus Humanity who Died in the cross?
Pity, you dont follow genuine God teaching about human sacrifice in the the Bible.
In Deuteronomy 12:30-31, God calls Human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him, “for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their Gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their Gods.
In Jeremiah 19:4-6, God tells us that Human sacrifice is so horrible a concept to Him, that it did not even come into His mind to demand it from His creation, “They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind.”
We see the same thing in Psalm 106:37-38, and in Ezekiel 16:20.
This means that God would not accept human Jesus’s death on the cross as a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.
The very idea of that God would accept a human sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins is UnBiblical.
So you believe in something man-made. You are free to reject the awesomeness of the Tawheed, La ikraha fid-din.. It is your choice pal :D,
******
True believer of God believe in no such a thing as nabi Isa Alaihissalam (p) as sacrifical lamb. Your trinarian concept of a dying/saving man/god as ransom is not authentic monotheistic understanding of the Messiahship of nabi Isa Alaihissalam.
The ancient pagan world in the west and mideast is filled with examples. Mithra, Adonis, Dionysis, Attis, Ra, and many others. Those “imaginary gods” were born in the Winter, died in the Spring, and came back to life and their followers would not die, but have immortal life, since the death of the man/god acted as their sacrifice for their sins.
The pagan world also was filled with gods who were the product of a human mother and a god for the father. Even Hercules had Zeus for a father, and a human mother named Alcmene. Dionysus’s human mother was named Semele, and his father was Zeus. Furthermore, Dionysus was known as a savior god.
Come to the awesomeness of the Tawheed.
وَ لَمۡ یَکُنۡ لَّہٗ کُفُوًا اَحَدٌ
And there is none like unto Him.
Aleluya
******
You said Salafist and Ashariites are insulting & mocking each other concerning god nature.
Sorry you are either lying or blow things up pal… Muslims in general dont associate themseves as Sunni, Salafist and Ashariites etc. this isnt as important like trinitarian have disagreement with unitarian and other trinitarianists regarding the nature of God.
Again dont just read from hateful islamophobes missionary literature. 🙂 🙂
God love you. He does not demand sacrifice for your sin.
God in his awesomeness fogives your sin.
What you have to do is ask for it sincerely and abandon the greatest shirk of all:
Believing God incarnate to become a mortal man, (astagfirullah)
Peace be unto those who follow the truth
In The Name of God the creator of Muhammad rasulullah and Isa Al-Masih nabiullah ,The One and only All-Merciful, The All-Gracious
So “Rjhon” hold a believe that Isa Al-Masih is a “ransom” God talked in Assaffat 37:107??
It is evident that your blind-faith and narrow-mindedness force you to “interpret” that way.
Of course the ram has been called “a great sacrifice” because it was to serve as a ransom from a faithful servant like Abraham for a patient and obedient son like Ishmael. It was a fulfillment of an unprecedented sacrifice.
Also it is “a great” sacrifice because people of faith made it a tradition till today to offer millions ram sacrifice every year around the world to keep fresh the memory of the great and unique event of moral story signifying obedience and devotion to God not as vicarious atonement.
Believing that nabi Isa alaihissalam as the human offer is blasphemous. A gross misuse of the concept of “sacrifice”.
Isa al masih according to your understanding where one who is alleged to be divine knows he is giving up his flesh-and-blood existence but seem reluctant “My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?” as the last words spoken by him from the cross.
Why should he have thought himself as separated from God at the very moment when, according to Christian theology, he was fulfilling God’s plan?? 🙂 🙂
Are you seriously to believe that Isa Al masih, who is supposed to be God’s equal, and His only begotten son, fell into deep depression and anguish because God refused to help him in his hour of need?
Wasn’t his death essential for the reason Isa Almasih supposedly became incarnate?
Why should he offer prayers to be saved from a fate that he is knowingly supposed to endure in order to redeem mankind from the power of sin?
How could Isa almasih If, as your belief, he as god knew and predicted long in advance the events surrounding his death as neither a surprise nor a defeat, but a working out of a divinely designed plan, complain: “My god, my God, why have You forsaken me?”
Something essentially gone wrong pal. 😀
God love you “Rjhon”. He does not demand sacrifice for your sin.
God in his awesomeness fogives your sin if you sincerely ask for it and abandon the greatest shirk of all, believing God incarnate to become a mortal man.
Peace be unto those who follow the truth
If a christian god walked on earth does that mean the black hole is more powerfull? It is because of that we muslims say Allah is the Most High , He does not reincarnate in nature (not possible) Time ( space) does not overtake him . Allah is outside time/space and matter , not like some taken dieties that rested on seventh day(24 hour day) .Nothing is comparale unto Allah . Salam aleikom
First one must understand that Children of Israel never view Holy Spirit as God. Except for some Hellenistic Jew from Tarsus and Roman Fathers.
One shall also bear in mind; Holy Spirit is referred with title God’s Spirit, and never be referred with the term God. But then again, we cant blame the Romans Chritians as their language were not aramaic nor hebrew. Thus confusion occurs as they were not guided by any Jewish followers of Jesus when reading Israelite scriptures.
Now lets reread the verse in Gen1:1-2.
God created the heavens and earth. But Holy Spirit only hovers on water. No where does it mentions Spirit involved in creating Heaven and Earth. But rather the verse imply that after Heaven and Earth were created. Only then Holy Spirit able to descend down to earth or do some jobs in heaven as commanded by Almighty God.
The verse also tells that Holy Spirit is limited in power as the Spirit can only exist below the realm of God, not in the same realm of God. Thus only able to hover over the waters created by Almighty God.
Hope it clears the misunderstanding that Holy Spirit is God. Again it is important to note that no past prophets from the times of 7 Laws (Noah) to 10 Laws all (Israelite prophets) ever view or taught Holy Spirit as God.